Star Wars

[glt1980]

I have seen the film multiple times and I am on a couple of other boards discussing it as well and while many like the character Finn many of those and I happen to be one didn't like the way that he came off in the film. I do recognize that he is probably the most important character in the movie and his character's arc is has probably the most room to expand over the next two movies.

Finn is the proxy for the audience, the every man that does not have the super powers, that is flawed, that is not the most noble, that is self serving but can rise up and do something remarkable. He is the character that most of the people in the audience are in there everyday real life which is why so many people are drawn to him.

The problem that I am many others saw was that he never did that something remarkable, the character came off as too much of the comical side kick, too much of the damsel in distress. too much of a tool to make the others look better. All his moments in the movie where he succeed came with the aid of other characters. The two big escapes he needed Poe to get off the Star Destroyer and Rey to get off Jakku and even in the end that escape was more about how good a pilot Rey was. When he does things on his own he is summarily defeated, goes up against the riot trooper ends up on his back about to get that final blow when Han comes along and shoot the trooper, goes up against Kylo Ren and lets be honest he was getting toyed with the first part of that fight after he got that one shot in and Ren got serious it was over in less than a minute. He is the one in the film that needs someone to rescue him time and time again. The moment he comes face to face with Phasma that could have been such a great moment if it were played more seriously instead of the head bobbing and all the "whose in charge now." If you read the book Before the Awakening that scene makes even less sense to be portrayed as comedy as Phasma had considered Finn one of the best stormtroopers in the First Order and saw potential in him to become an officer.

If Finn had just gotten one "win" on his own a lot of people that are disappointed would have been satisfied. We are told that Finn and Rey are the main characters but then you put them side by side they make Rey damn near perfect, she strong with the force, a great pilot, a mechanical wizard, she is strong enough to fend off two people trying take BB-8, she does not need anyone to rescue her, she is obviously highly intelligent. Whereas Finn on the other hand literally couldn't fly to save his life, doesn't even know what tool to hand Rey when she is try to fix the leak in the MF and she has to point it out to him, Finn can't even beat one of his peers 1 on 1, when he is snatched up on the freighter by the rathtar what happens Rey saves him.

 

[orejon4]

I saw the film last night and felt Finn was just as awkward and inconsistent as all the other young principle cast of characters. Each character had moments of weakness and revealed places where they will need growth in order to be fully functioning fighters.
Rey ran from her fever dream with the Luke's lightsaber, which led to her capture.
Kylo was powerful but a young hot mess of anger. Do you remember his temper tantrum with his lightsaber?
Po gave up information about which droid had the map flash drive thingy.
Also, Finn's character and behavior, in my opinion, is a surrogate for the audience.
To say Finn was a coward is stupid. He tricked the Resistance into infiltrating the death planet, the place he had desperately (read: cowardly) tried to avoid the entire movie--the source of his driving panic and fear, just so he could save his friend. That, friends, is the very definition of courage. Period. Confronting a primal fear to help someone you care about is more courageous than all the big action set schmaltz that flashes across the screen.
The problem with racially mapping characters is that stereotypes have no core of meaning; essentially, super strong, effortlessly courageous, suave black archetypes are a familiar (dehumanizing because they don't exist in reality) troupe and the obverse is just as stereotypical. Writers try to split the difference but viewers see the parts of the characters they want, turn the aspects they don't like into a synecdoche. Finn wasn't a perfect hero so he is interpreted in the light of his shortcomings and not his virtues.

Great points. I think people may be projecting the hopes of 21st Century Black America onto a character from a long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away. (cheesy, I know)

If you want to see a black character who is dominant in the Star Wars Universe, check the Cade Skywalker Legacy comics, where his black right-hand man is a great pilot, tough fighter AND is sleeping with his mother... "Potent" enough for you? Lol

 

[Shulz021]

Great points. I think people may be projecting the hopes of 21st Century Black America onto a character from a long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away. (cheesy, I know)

If you want to see a black character who is dominant in the Star Wars Universe, check the Cade Skywalker Legacy comics, where his black right-hand man is a great pilot, tough fighter AND is sleeping with his mother... "Potent" enough for you? Lol

:smt042

 

[Ol'Skool Classic]

I saw the film last night and felt Finn was just as awkward and inconsistent as all the other young principle cast of characters. Each character had moments of weakness and revealed places where they will need growth in order to be fully functioning fighters.
Rey ran from her fever dream with the Luke's lightsaber, which led to her capture.
Kylo was powerful but a young hot mess of anger. Do you remember his temper tantrum with his lightsaber?
Po gave up information about which droid had the map flash drive thingy.
Also, Finn's character and behavior, in my opinion, is a surrogate for the audience.
To say Finn was a coward is stupid. He tricked the Resistance into infiltrating the death planet, the place he had desperately (read: cowardly) tried to avoid the entire movie--the source of his driving panic and fear, just so he could save his friend. That, friends, is the very definition of courage. Period. Confronting a primal fear to help someone you care about is more courageous than all the big action set schmaltz that flashes across the screen.
The problem with racially mapping characters is that stereotypes have no core of meaning; essentially, super strong, effortlessly courageous, suave black archetypes are a familiar (dehumanizing because they don't exist in reality) troupe and the obverse is just as stereotypical. Writers try to split the difference but viewers see the parts of the characters they want, turn the aspects they don't like into a synecdoche. Finn wasn't a perfect hero so he is interpreted in the light of his shortcomings and not his virtues.

Great points. I think people may be projecting the hopes of 21st Century Black America onto a character from a long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away. (cheesy, I know)

This.


I had three white co-workers who saw the movie say Finn made the movie for them because he pretty much said and did all of the things that they as fans of Star Wars would have done if they were basically just thrown into the events of what was going on.

 

[The Dark King]

I have seen the film multiple times and I am on a couple of other boards discussing it as well and while many like the character Finn many of those and I happen to be one didn't like the way that he came off in the film. I do recognize that he is probably the most important character in the movie and his character's arc is has probably the most room to expand over the next two movies.

Finn is the proxy for the audience, the every man that does not have the super powers, that is flawed, that is not the most noble, that is self serving but can rise up and do something remarkable. He is the character that most of the people in the audience are in there everyday real life which is why so many people are drawn to him.

The problem that I am many others saw was that he never did that something remarkable, the character came off as too much of the comical side kick, too much of the damsel in distress. too much of a tool to make the others look better. All his moments in the movie where he succeed came with the aid of other characters. The two big escapes he needed Poe to get off the Star Destroyer and Rey to get off Jakku and even in the end that escape was more about how good a pilot Rey was. When he does things on his own he is summarily defeated, goes up against the riot trooper ends up on his back about to get that final blow when Han comes along and shoot the trooper, goes up against Kylo Ren and lets be honest he was getting toyed with the first part of that fight after he got that one shot in and Ren got serious it was over in less than a minute. He is the one in the film that needs someone to rescue him time and time again. The moment he comes face to face with Phasma that could have been such a great moment if it were played more seriously instead of the head bobbing and all the "whose in charge now." If you read the book Before the Awakening that scene makes even less sense to be portrayed as comedy as Phasma had considered Finn one of the best stormtroopers in the First Order and saw potential in him to become an officer.

If Finn had just gotten one "win" on his own a lot of people that are disappointed would have been satisfied. We are told that Finn and Rey are the main characters but then you put them side by side they make Rey damn near perfect, she strong with the force, a great pilot, a mechanical wizard, she is strong enough to fend off two people trying take BB-8, she does not need anyone to rescue her, she is obviously highly intelligent. Whereas Finn on the other hand literally couldn't fly to save his life, doesn't even know what tool to hand Rey when she is try to fix the leak in the MF and she has to point it out to him, Finn can't even beat one of his peers 1 on 1, when he is snatched up on the freighter by the rathtar what happens Rey saves him.

Omg this
You said everything I was thinking and more.
Great examples of what I was talking about.
And seriously guys what is so wrong about wanting the sigular black character to not be a damn joke. It's insulting and very disappointing.
If we had multiple characters to attach identification with this wouldn't be an issue but we only get one and he's a joke

 

[ryanpaulstewart]

There's nothing wrong, per say, with wanting a strong black character in a globally marketed film - I get that (politically/socially), but the point at issue is what constitutes a "strong black character." As a writer, and having been in a 'writer's room,' there is much debate, even amongst black writers, of how to portray black characters: do you write them to counter previous depictions, or do you construct them 'race-blind' to serve the necessities of the plot. In what I saw, which was a single viewing (and having read no work or books outside of the film), Finn was a noble version of Han Solo. He's driven to "do the right thing--" not for money or personal gain, but hasn't fully come to terms with it so he has setbacks. That to me is a hero and I really liked the character because of it.

Po was heroic and sure of himself and effective but he was also a non-character and didn't carry any of the emotion of the story - a waste of Oscar Issac, really. Finn was the emotional throughline of the piece. Po got to blow shit up but Finn got to be the heart.

 

[The Dark King]

There's nothing wrong, per say, with wanting a strong black character in a globally marketed film - I get that (politically/socially), but the point at issue is what constitutes a "strong black character." As a writer, and having been in a 'writer's room,' there is much debate, even amongst black writers, of how to portray black characters: do you write them to counter previous depictions, or do you construct them 'race-blind' to serve the necessities of the plot. In what I saw, which was a single viewing (and having read no work or books outside of the film), Finn was a noble version of Han Solo. He's driven to "do the right thing--" not for money or personal gain, but hasn't fully come to terms with it so he has setbacks. That to me is a hero and I really liked the character because of it.

Po was heroic and sure of himself and effective but he was also a non-character and didn't carry any of the emotion of the story - a waste of Oscar Issac, really. Finn was the emotional throughline of the piece. Po got to blow shit up but Finn got to be the heart.

What debate look at Blade, Morpheus, Mace Windu there you go. Blueprint right there. It's an obvious choice to depict bm as weak and incapable. Gt's post said it all

 

[ryanpaulstewart]

Blade was a titular character, not part of an ensemble piece. Morpheus was ultimately played out to be a fool; his entire understanding of the Matrix was proven to be foolhardy. And Mace Windu, from a plot standpoint, was a non-character. He sat on a council and had a purple lightsaber. No character development, no hero's journey, just a point-and-shoot character.

 

[archangel]

They need to toss a low opponent for you guys.

Finn's first fight with a lightsaber(no training again) was against a guy who knew the in's and out's of his weapons.

His second fight he learned so much that he injured someone who knew his way around a light saber and had training from Luke Skywalker and a Sith.
Keep in mind, ben solo captured rey with all of her abilities without any injuries. She had a second chance to understand who Ben is during the interrogation and then a second fight.

I don't quite see fin as self serving short of staying alive which all of the heroes have done. His first appearance is marked by the first noble thing done. He disagrees with the first order. He chooses despite having several men that can kill him not to shoot(unless I have forgotten). Many people would have done so in fear(kylo ren saw it). He then turns around and saves Poe from the first order and escapes from top ace pilots. That's the start no rey yet. Arrives on the planet, Bounty on his head. Rey nothing. She can walk as free as she wants.
Yes, rey is a pilot. Keep in mind Finn knows how the first order works. now which one you think is more important is on you. I'm not going through the rest of it. Rey gets captured. Finn and solo come to the rescue.blah blah blah

let me remind you folks. Almost nothing Luke did was not done without help in the first movie. They needed a pilot to get them there. He never fights anyone with a light saber(I might be wrong about that) Ben kenobi ends up saving them by sacrificing himself. He even rejects the jedi way. A lot of Luke was packed into Finn. The only thing I can remember Luke doing was shooting the deathstar down and that was with people providing cover.

I have seen the film multiple times and I am on a couple of other boards discussing it as well and while many like the character Finn many of those and I happen to be one didn't like the way that he came off in the film. I do recognize that he is probably the most important character in the movie and his character's arc is has probably the most room to expand over the next two movies.

Finn is the proxy for the audience, the every man that does not have the super powers, that is flawed, that is not the most noble, that is self serving but can rise up and do something remarkable. He is the character that most of the people in the audience are in there everyday real life which is why so many people are drawn to him.

The problem that I am many others saw was that he never did that something remarkable, the character came off as too much of the comical side kick, too much of the damsel in distress. too much of a tool to make the others look better. All his moments in the movie where he succeed came with the aid of other characters. The two big escapes he needed Poe to get off the Star Destroyer and Rey to get off Jakku and even in the end that escape was more about how good a pilot Rey was. When he does things on his own he is summarily defeated, goes up against the riot trooper ends up on his back about to get that final blow when Han comes along and shoot the trooper, goes up against Kylo Ren and lets be honest he was getting toyed with the first part of that fight after he got that one shot in and Ren got serious it was over in less than a minute. He is the one in the film that needs someone to rescue him time and time again. The moment he comes face to face with Phasma that could have been such a great moment if it were played more seriously instead of the head bobbing and all the "whose in charge now." If you read the book Before the Awakening that scene makes even less sense to be portrayed as comedy as Phasma had considered Finn one of the best stormtroopers in the First Order and saw potential in him to become an officer.

If Finn had just gotten one "win" on his own a lot of people that are disappointed would have been satisfied. We are told that Finn and Rey are the main characters but then you put them side by side they make Rey damn near perfect, she strong with the force, a great pilot, a mechanical wizard, she is strong enough to fend off two people trying take BB-8, she does not need anyone to rescue her, she is obviously highly intelligent. Whereas Finn on the other hand literally couldn't fly to save his life, doesn't even know what tool to hand Rey when she is try to fix the leak in the MF and she has to point it out to him, Finn can't even beat one of his peers 1 on 1, when he is snatched up on the freighter by the rathtar what happens Rey saves him.

Omg this
You said everything I was thinking and more.
Great examples of what I was talking about.
And seriously guys what is so wrong about wanting the sigular black character to not be a damn joke. It's insulting and very disappointing.
If we had multiple characters to attach identification with this wouldn't be an issue but we only get one and he's a joke

 

[archangel]

What debate look at Blade, Morpheus, Mace Windu there you go. Blueprint right there. It's an obvious choice to depict bm as weak and incapable. Gt's post said it all

All of them sucked. Morpheus and Mace were side character, I could care less about Blade. Still waiting for a Miles or Static movie. I want to feel attached to a character. Finn did that to some extent.

 

[samson1701]

 

[The Dark King]

Blade was a titular character, not part of an ensemble piece. Morpheus was ultimately played out to be a fool; his entire understanding of the Matrix was proven to be foolhardy. And Mace Windu, from a plot standpoint, was a non-character. He sat on a council and had a purple lightsaber. No character development, no hero's journey, just a point-and-shoot character.

So what's your point still a good archetype Blade was bad ass funny and went through the hero's journey.

Morpheus's understanding of the prophecy was dead on. He in fact found the one who would save Zion. Mace Windu in Clone Wars, both cartoon incarnations, was an expert strategist an amazing Jedi and was a leader. Check your facts homie

 

[The Dark King]

All of them sucked. Morpheus and Mace were side character, I could care less about Blade. Still waiting for a Miles or Static movie. I want to feel attached to a character. Finn did that to some extent.

You have shit taste in movies fam, all of them sucked? What were you watching?
Shit Blade kicked off the new era of superhero movies you currently enjoy he was their first success

 

[Shulz021]

:smt043 :smt043

 

[glt1980]

They need to toss a low opponent for you guys.

Finn's first fight with a lightsaber(no training again) was against a guy who knew the in's and out's of his weapons.

His second fight he learned so much that he injured someone who knew his way around a light saber and had training from Luke Skywalker and a Sith.
Keep in mind, ben solo captured rey with all of her abilities without any injuries. She had a second chance to understand who Ben is during the interrogation and then a second fight.

I don't quite see fin as self serving short of staying alive which all of the heroes have done. His first appearance is marked by the first noble thing done. He disagrees with the first order. He chooses despite having several men that can kill him not to shoot(unless I have forgotten). Many people would have done so in fear(kylo ren saw it). He then turns around and saves Poe from the first order and escapes from top ace pilots. That's the start no rey yet. Arrives on the planet, Bounty on his head. Rey nothing. She can walk as free as she wants.
Yes, rey is a pilot. Keep in mind Finn knows how the first order works. now which one you think is more important is on you. I'm not going through the rest of it. Rey gets captured. Finn and solo come to the rescue.blah blah blah

let me remind you folks. Almost nothing Luke did was not done without help in the first movie. They needed a pilot to get them there. He never fights anyone with a light saber(I might be wrong about that) Ben kenobi ends up saving them by sacrificing himself. He even rejects the jedi way. A lot of Luke was packed into Finn. The only thing I can remember Luke doing was shooting the deathstar down and that was with people providing cover.

The Riot trooper was the "low opponent" and he still whooped Finn's ass. Just think about it in the 6 previous movies had any other main character been bested by a singular storm trooper, don't have to think hard because it never happened.

Again Star Wars nerd here so I read the novel as well and here is a bit of background you get on Finn.

"Finn is in the top 1% in exams, an expert with tactics, blasters and hand-to-hand weapons, and a good candidate for making officer."

From that description one would presume that even though it was his first time with a lightsaber as an expert with hand to hand weapons he should have enough skill to at least hold his own and not get completely beaten. He was totally on the defensive in that go around.

The second fight come on Kylo Ren had been hit by Chewy's Bowcaster a few minutes before, a weapon that was shown blowing full grown men away. He had just killed his Dad and he wasn't exactly emotionally stable before he did that. So physically and emotionally weakened he basically toys with Finn if you noticed before he was injured by Finn he was basically fighting him with one hand anyway. Finn gets in one lucky shot which just pisses Ren off and decides alright I'm ending this and he does in like 20 seconds.

Kylo Ren captured Rey before she discovered she had an abilities. She tried to fight him off with a blaster. A skilled saber wielder against 1 person with a blaster I would hope he could handle that.

You right Finn's first act not killing the villagers after the battle was clearly won is truly a noble act. He could have just caved and done what all the others were doing but didn't credit where it is due.

To say that his other acts were not self serving well that is wrong.

• Saving Poe - He did not do it because it was the right thing to do. He did it because he needed him. Poe was the only person on the Star Destroyer with the skills to fly a TIE fighter and who would help him. Plus it was Finn being argumentative about going back to Jakku that ultimately got them shot down in the first place. He never wanted to go back at all he wanted to get as far away as possible.

• His providing information about the first order to the resistance, again not because he wanted to be part of some grand and noble cause to defeat them. He did it because he wanted to go and save Rey. He lied about being able to bring the sheilds down so that he could get to Starkiller Base he put the entire resistance at risk to save Rey. He says as much to Han.

To Luke in a new hope, they don't need a pilot. They need a ship, when Han tells them how much Luke says we could get out own ship for that Han asks who gonna fly it, you? to which Luke you bet I'm not such a bad pilot myself.

You're right he does not fight with a lightsaber until ESB. Obi-Wan did sacrifice himself but the Empire let them get away so that they could track the MF to the rebels secret base. Luke did have cover but remember Biggs and Wedge and Biggs was killed and Wedge had to bug out because his ship was damaged. In the end Luke piloted his Xwing into position and delivered the shot that blew up the DeathStar which was a pivotal moment in the OT that cemeneted his place as the hero. A moment Finn did not have in the film.

 

[Ol'Skool Classic]

Morpheus's understanding of the prophecy was dead on. He in fact found the one who would save Zion.

You know that Morpheus effectively falls under the "Magical Movie Negro" banner right? His whole purpose is to help the special/gifted "white savior", Neo. If you are disappointed in Finn in Force Awakens then you should be equally or more disappointed in Morpheus in the Matrix Trilogy. Just saying.......

 

[archangel]

You have shit taste in movies fam, all of them sucked? What were you watching?
Shit Blade kicked off the new era of superhero movies you currently enjoy he was their first success

There was not much about these characters. Mace just appeared. No back story of how he came to be. Morpheus same issue(how did he get free and how did he become morpheus). I can't remember much on blade having a back story(beyond the cartoons and comic books).

This is the first time that you get to ride along with a black character that will eventually become an experienced fighter and last through the series.

Did you watch star wars clone wars? You had to have been invested in Ashoka.


I mean we are all waiting for the ashoka vs Vader fight.I think the hype is there because of the long journey of Ashoka. You became invested in her because you have seen her grow. I hope the same is given to Finn.

I don't think we get to see this with a black character in any movie. I mean you got luke, neo, anakin but can you name a black character that you get to ride with from novice to expert? Plenty of experts to choose from.

 

[The Dark King]

You know that Morpheus effectively falls under the "Magical Movie Negro" banner right? His whole purpose is to help the special/gifted "white savior", Neo. If you are disappointed in Finn in Force Awakens then you should be equally or more disappointed in Morpheus in the Matrix Trilogy. Just saying.......

No because he trained him got him prepared Neo fought Smith and won. Mission complete. He never failed his mission because his purpose was to find the one.

 

[The Dark King]

There was not much about these characters. Mace just appeared. No back story of how he came to be. Morpheus same issue(how did he get free and how did he become morpheus). I can't remember much on blade having a back story(beyond the cartoons and comic books).

This is the first time that you get to ride along with a black character that will eventually become an experienced fighter and last through the series.

Did you watch star wars clone wars? You had to have been invested in Ashoka.


I mean we are all waiting for the ashoka vs Vader fight.I think the hype is there because of the long journey of Ashoka. You became invested in her because you have seen her grow. I hope the same is given to Finn.

I don't think we get to see this with a black character in any movie. I mean you got luke, neo, anakin but can you name a black character that you get to ride with from novice to expert? Plenty of experts to choose from.

I agree we don't usually see black characters develop but like GT pointed out at least Luke had a moment of victory same with Neo and Anakin that didn't happen for Finn. I am willing to wait and see just not happy with this go around.
Btw Ashoka is in the new Star Wars Rebel so I think that Vader is gonna happen
And to be fair to the Matrix and Star Wars if you think about no one outside of the main character every really has a development story which wasn't the case with Blade since he was the main character

 

[Ol'Skool Classic]

No because he trained him got him prepared Neo fought Smith and won. Mission complete. He never failed his mission because his purpose was to find the one.

"The Magical Negro is a supporting stock character in American cinema who is portrayed as coming to the aid of a film's white protagonists. Magical Negro characters, who often possess special insight or mystical powers, have long been a tradition in American fiction."


So Morpheus doesn't fit that description from your POV?