Star Wars

[The Dark King]

"The Magical Negro is a supporting stock character in American cinema who is portrayed as coming to the aid of a film's white protagonists. Magical Negro characters, who often possess special insight or mystical powers, have long been a tradition in American fiction."


So Morpheus doesn't fit that description from your POV?

No more than a Mr Miyagi or a Yoda. He was a teacher and a mentor. The magic negro in that series would have been the Oracle not Morpheus. Usually you don't have scenes where the magical negro beats the white character and has dope action sequences of his own independent of the main character. He was a supporting character yes but doesn't fit your Magical Negro trope.

 

[Ol'Skool Classic]

No more than a Mr Miyagi or a Yoda. He was a teacher and a mentor. The magic negro in that series would have been the Oracle not Morpheus. Usually you don't have scenes where the magical negro beats the white character and has dope action sequences of his own independent of the main character. He was a supporting character yes but doesn't fit your Magical Negro trope.

If you say so. I don't see how he's more acceptable than Finn, especially since he himself was captured and tortured by Smith in the first movie. But somehow Finn should have been on"Neo" level shit for Star Wars in his first outing......

 

[The Dark King]

If you say so. I don't see how he's more acceptable than Finn, especially since he himself was captured and tortured by Smith in the first movie. But somehow Finn should have been on"Neo" level shit for Star Wars in his first outing......

Where are you getting that from? I never said anything close to that. I just wanted a stronger a character.
And Morpheus got caught after getting beat by Agent Smith and then beaten by a bunch of cops. Its not even in the same league as that wack ass fight with Finn.
Like I said before nothing about him resembled an intergalatic bad ass soldier.

 

[Ol'Skool Classic]

Where are you getting that from? I never said anything close to that. I just wanted a stronger a character.
And Morpheus got caught after getting beat by Agent Smith and then beaten by a bunch of cops. Its not even in the same league as that wack ass fight with Finn.
Like I said before nothing about him resembled an intergalatic bad ass soldier.

And where was it anywhere put that Finn was supposed to be "an intergalactic bad ass soldier"? That's like automatically expecting anyone with military service of any kind to be a "bad ass soldier". They even put it out there that particular village raid was his first actual combat mission, being that he had been maintenance before that. Assuming we don't find out that he may be Force sensitive himself in the next two movies, that might have been why he broke his conditioning.

 

[Bookworm616]

And where was it anywhere put that Finn was supposed to be "an intergalactic bad ass soldier"? That's like automatically expecting anyone with military service of any kind to be a "bad ass soldier". They even put it out there that particular village raid was his first actual combat mission, being that he had been maintenance before that. Assuming we don't find out that he may be Force sensitive himself in the next two movies, that might have been why he broke his conditioning.

You should just give it up. You can give him example after example after example and he'll still stubbornly stick to his opinion.

It's not worth it.

Btw, everything you're saying (as well as a few others) is correct and makes perfect sense.

 

[ryanpaulstewart]

https://youtu.be/3gvbTWGJgPA

Let's end the acrimony with a clip of Daisy Ridley kissing a random black dude in some fashion video. It occurs at 0:44.

 

[Thump]

And where was it anywhere put that Finn was supposed to be "an intergalactic bad ass soldier"? That's like automatically expecting anyone with military service of any kind to be a "bad ass soldier". They even put it out there that particular village raid was his first actual combat mission, being that he had been maintenance before that. Assuming we don't find out that he may be Force sensitive himself in the next two movies, that might have been why he broke his conditioning.

The idea of Finn as a "badass" soldier was established in one of the prequel novels. In the book it says he beat several of his fellow troopers in sparring combat, and it also says he is a natural leader who was on a fast track for advancement in the First Order. There is even a quote were Captain Phasma says "[Finn] has the potential to be one of the finest stormtroopers I have ever seen."

 

[archangel]

This is going to be a long one.

Finn was fighting someone who was trained to use that weapon(whatever that weapon is called). He had no training with a light saber. It was clearly an unfair fight.
You will not find a match in the last 6 movies of a newbie fighting a non clone storm trooper that was trained with his weapon of choice. You are right it never happened because not a single person in the movies are given a light saber for the first time and told go at it. Luke was trained. Anakin was trained. Finn was thrown into a situation that was unfair and manage to do his best.

I understand that he is in the books but I really don't think they took that into consideration when making the movie.
Even if they did, all the storm troopers get the same training(or I think they do).
From what I see online, Finn has no field combat experience just practice. So he has a weapon that he was not trained with and no field combat experience against someone who was chosen to be in the field over sanitation. He shouldn't have won. For all we know this is someone on the level of Rex fighting a newbie in real field combat. I don't recall Luke fighting someone with a lightsaber in the first movie. I don't recall Anakin fighting anyone before training with a light saber.

The killing of his father, I felt pacified the fight between good and evil internally. Again, I am just pointing out the unfairness of a fight for Finn. I don't know if he has force abilities or not but to damage to someone with some training shows potential.

I will admit that running from a military that is trying to kill you is self serving. I mean does anyone think that he should have stayed and fought the whole military there?

The other point is stereotypical hero saving the damsel in distress. He didn't have to do anything. He could have exited. Why risk your neck for a girl that you barely know?



You are right they needed a ship.

The Riot trooper was the "low opponent" and he still whooped Finn's ass. Just think about it in the 6 previous movies had any other main character been bested by a singular storm trooper, don't have to think hard because it never happened.

Again Star Wars nerd here so I read the novel as well and here is a bit of background you get on Finn.

"Finn is in the top 1% in exams, an expert with tactics, blasters and hand-to-hand weapons, and a good candidate for making officer."

From that description one would presume that even though it was his first time with a lightsaber as an expert with hand to hand weapons he should have enough skill to at least hold his own and not get completely beaten. He was totally on the defensive in that go around.

The second fight come on Kylo Ren had been hit by Chewy's Bowcaster a few minutes before, a weapon that was shown blowing full grown men away. He had just killed his Dad and he wasn't exactly emotionally stable before he did that. So physically and emotionally weakened he basically toys with Finn if you noticed before he was injured by Finn he was basically fighting him with one hand anyway. Finn gets in one lucky shot which just pisses Ren off and decides alright I'm ending this and he does in like 20 seconds.

Kylo Ren captured Rey before she discovered she had an abilities. She tried to fight him off with a blaster. A skilled saber wielder against 1 person with a blaster I would hope he could handle that.

You right Finn's first act not killing the villagers after the battle was clearly won is truly a noble act. He could have just caved and done what all the others were doing but didn't credit where it is due.

To say that his other acts were not self serving well that is wrong.

• Saving Poe - He did not do it because it was the right thing to do. He did it because he needed him. Poe was the only person on the Star Destroyer with the skills to fly a TIE fighter and who would help him. Plus it was Finn being argumentative about going back to Jakku that ultimately got them shot down in the first place. He never wanted to go back at all he wanted to get as far away as possible.

• His providing information about the first order to the resistance, again not because he wanted to be part of some grand and noble cause to defeat them. He did it because he wanted to go and save Rey. He lied about being able to bring the sheilds down so that he could get to Starkiller Base he put the entire resistance at risk to save Rey. He says as much to Han.

To Luke in a new hope, they don't need a pilot. They need a ship, when Han tells them how much Luke says we could get out own ship for that Han asks who gonna fly it, you? to which Luke you bet I'm not such a bad pilot myself.

You're right he does not fight with a lightsaber until ESB. Obi-Wan did sacrifice himself but the Empire let them get away so that they could track the MF to the rebels secret base. Luke did have cover but remember Biggs and Wedge and Biggs was killed and Wedge had to bug out because his ship was damaged. In the end Luke piloted his Xwing into position and delivered the shot that blew up the DeathStar which was a pivotal moment in the OT that cemeneted his place as the hero. A moment Finn did not have in the film.

 

[The Dark King]

And where was it anywhere put that Finn was supposed to be "an intergalactic bad ass soldier"? That's like automatically expecting anyone with military service of any kind to be a "bad ass soldier". They even put it out there that particular village raid was his first actual combat mission, being that he had been maintenance before that. Assuming we don't find out that he may be Force sensitive himself in the next two movies, that might have been why he broke his conditioning.

He was in the books
And if you watched the Clone Wars you see the training they went through and they were elite soldiers. Its not like there's no bases.

 

[The Dark King]

You should just give it up. You can give him example after example after example and he'll still stubbornly stick to his opinion.

It's not worth it.

Btw, everything you're saying (as well as a few others) is correct and makes perfect sense.

The idea of Finn as a "badass" soldier was established in one of the prequel novels. In the book it says he beat several of his fellow troopers in sparring combat, and it also says he is a natural leader who was on a fast track for advancement in the First Order. There is even a quote were Captain Phasma says "[Finn] has the potential to be one of the finest stormtroopers I have ever seen."

Sounds like you're no better. Assholes and all that huh lol

 

[archangel]

He was in the books
And if you watched the Clone Wars you see the training they went through and they were elite soldiers. Its not like there's no bases.

Going through training and field experience are two different things. You can't think that a new clone would be able to take on Rex never mind ashoka.....

Mind you, Finn is not a clone trooper. Being ranked high in training and being ranked high in field experience are two different things.

 

[The Dark King]

Going through training and field experience are two different things. You can't think that a new clone would be able to take on Rex never mind ashoka.....

Mind you, Finn is not a clone trooper. Being ranked high in training and being ranked high in field experience are two different things.

I totally agree with but there was nothing to exhibit he had any kind of training at all. There was absolutely no cool factor to this kid.

 

[archangel]

I totally agree with but there was nothing to exhibit he had any kind of training at all. There was absolutely no cool factor to this kid.

Well he was facing very talented people.

The cool factor is subject to opinion. Out of the three newbies, I'd say he was the more memorable one due to the charisma. Poe was probably seen as the more cooler of the three but was totally misused. Rey was too cold for me to get into.

 

[The Dark King]

Well he was facing very talented people.

The cool factor is subject to opinion. Out of the three newbies, I'd say he was the more memorable one due to the charisma. Poe was probably seen as the more cooler of the three but was totally misused. Rey was too cold for me to get into.

Put it like this if we were kids I doubt anyone would be buying his action figure and when little kids play pretend no one is gonna want to be Finn

 

[archangel]

Put it like this if we were kids I doubt anyone would be buying his action figure and when little kids play pretend no one is gonna want to be Finn

Ben Solo toys are probably selling the most out of the four newbies.

 

[Thump]

Sounds like you're no better. Assholes and all that huh lol

I'm not sure what you mean.

 

[samson1701]

First off, I don't think bringing in the books is really a fair way of arguing this. Most of the audience only has the movies to go off of. And, if the director, producers and editor of the film put the movie together in such a way that omited most, or all, of the traits that would have made Finn an actual bad ass hero (like all the other past main white male protagonists in the SW films), then that alone says a ton about the missed opportunity that was the character of Finn. For that reason, hearing how much of a bad ass he was in the book made his dipiction on screen seem that much more neutered. Kind of like Tyrese from TWD comic vs. Tyrese from TWD TV show. One was a compatent warrior against the unxead hordes. The other was a great baby sitter.

Seems like they sacrificed him to make her more heroic. It was never like that in A New Hope. Luke, Han, Lea and Ben all got a chance to shine. There was no promise of, "Oh, in the next movie, he or she will get to be more heroic." It was laid out in their first outing. Great story telling.

Finn is the kind of black character you'd have expected to see back in the late 80's or 90's. Not the kind we were led (by the trailers) to expect to see today. TDK is making some valid points.

 

[The Dark King]

First off, I don't think bringing in the books is really a fair way of arguing this. Most of the audience only has the movies to go off of. And, if the director, producers and editor of the film put the movie together in such a way that omited most, or all, of the traits that would have made Finn an actual bad ass hero (like all the other past main white male protagonists in the SW films), then that alone says a ton about the missed opportunity that was the character of Finn. For that reason, hearing how much of a bad ass he was in the book made his dipiction on screen seem that much more neutered. Kind of like Tyrese from TWD comic vs. Tyrese from TWD TV show. One was a compatent warrior against the unxead hordes. The other was a great baby sitter.

Seems like they sacrificed him to make her more heroic. It was never like that in A New Hope. Luke, Han, Lea and Ben all got a chance to shine. There was no promise of, "Oh, in the next movie, he or she will get to be more heroic." It was laid out in their first outing. Great story telling.

Finn is the kind of black character you'd have expected to see back in the late 80's or 90's. Not the kind we were led (by the trailers) to expect to see today. TDK is making some valid points.

Good point and well said
Its like him just being in the film and not going full blown Jar Jar is enough for people
Great comparison with Tyrese too. They did redeem themselves with Morgan but can't stand his decisions but thats for another thread lol

 

[Ol'Skool Classic]

The idea of Finn as a "badass" soldier was established in one of the prequel novels. In the book it says he beat several of his fellow troopers in sparring combat, and it also says he is a natural leader who was on a fast track for advancement in the First Order. There is even a quote were Captain Phasma says "[Finn] has the potential to be one of the finest stormtroopers I have ever seen."

Then that should have been established ON SCREEN. Not everyone who enjoys the Star Wars movies is automatically going to delve into other Star Wars related media outside of the movies. Especially non hardcore Star Wars fans who don't soak up every possible details about the mythology and especially if it establishes important things about the characters off screen that should be known when you watch the movies going forward.

 

[ryanpaulstewart]

This dialogue has become excessively tedious. Yes, Finn could've been more "bad ass," perhaps he shouldn't have run from Rey's attack when they first met or taken out some of the storm troopers with greater ease and aplomb. But from a writing standpoint, his foibles with the lightsaber against the storm trooper were a set up for his use of the lightsaber against Kylo Ren; also, his combat skittishness could be the expression of him being a conscientious objector, which was the grounding of his decision to not kill on order--this is supremely heroic and easily the most commendable kind of bravery. This is a matter of taste and opinion. Without being privy to his story arc, we can't properly evaluate his character.
His strong connection to Rey and Kylo Ren (Ren looked directly at him when he decided not to kill) have to be fleshed out. This is only the first act, which is an introduction to the main players and central conflict.