Cheaters

[pettyofficerj]

As long as your wives can have multiple husbands too

bullshit..if this was a muslim country you would be stoned in the public square just for thinking you could do what a man does

 

[TreePixie]

I don't see how the multiple husband thing works unless that woman is willing to go out and bring home the bacon and take care of the men because in the multiple wife example wife the women are normally cared for. But from what I've seen of the multiple husband scenario the men are still required to take care of themselves.

You know me, I'm all for everyone taking care of themselves.

But think of a household this way just for a second. One woman can only be pregnant so many times, so you limit population. Men make more than women as a general rule, so if the guys work, the household income is going to be much higher. And the work around the house will increase, more laundry, more to clean up, but meals won't be any more difficult to prepare, childcare is much more limited than in a multiple woman/one man situation because there are fewer kids. I think it could work, and actually benefit the people in the household.

I actually have a friend who is married and in the Army (I think the reserves now, but she was active duty for a number of years, and did 2 stints in Afghanistan). While her husband was deployed she met a guy who became a really close friend, and then he was more. When her husband returned home, he found he really liked the guy, and much to his surprise, he even discovered he was bisexual. I think she's got the perfect life - they all live quite happily together, and if she doesn't feel like sex, she gets to watch ;-)

 

[TreePixie]

bullshit..if this was a muslim country you would be stoned in the public square just for thinking you could do what a man does

But it isn't.

 

[The Dark King]

You know me, I'm all for everyone taking care of themselves.

But think of a household this way just for a second. One woman can only be pregnant so many times, so you limit population. Men make more than women as a general rule, so if the guys work, the household income is going to be much higher. And the work around the house will increase, more laundry, more to clean up, but meals won't be any more difficult to prepare, childcare is much more limited than in a multiple woman/one man situation because there are fewer kids. I think it could work, and actually benefit the people in the household.

I actually have a friend who is married and in the Army (I think the reserves now, but she was active duty for a number of years, and did 2 stints in Afghanistan). While her husband was deployed she met a guy who became a really close friend, and then he was more. When her husband returned home, he found he really liked the guy, and much to his surprise, he even discovered he was bisexual. I think she's got the perfect life - they all live quite happily together, and if she doesn't feel like sex, she gets to watch ;-)

I personally don't believe in bisexuality but thats my take. I agree if there is equitable distribution of responsibility it could work in either situation but the traditional idea of having multiple wives requires the man to have the wealth to take care of the women and the children. The female example doesn't require that which is what makes it unfair to me. If you want me to share your vag with several men then there's gotta be more in it for me than just equal distribution of chores. And the other problem with that is if I want kids and she can't or doesn't want to provide them because she's already had some with husband number one were does that leave me? At least in the multiple wives situation the women can never be cheated on that front. Just a thought.

 

[4north1side2]

Have you SEEN the average middle aged guy? Seriously? You think beer bellies, grey or balding and wrinkles are what women signed on for? Does she have a right to cheat on your ass if you gain 15 pounds? Without even having put your body through multiple pregnancies and births? What if your hair falls out? What if your dick goes limp?

No, it wouldnt be reasonable. It would be reasonable for men to grow the fuck up and stop living in the fantasies of lad mags. People age. People get sick. Shit happens. Marry your best friend, make sure that person stays your best friend, and be a grown up.

You are absolutely right shit happens so why are folks so unreasonable when it comes to their spouse sleeping with others? I ain't trying to hear no bullshit about "vows". Peoples opinions and stances constantly evolve thru life.

I see the very same people with such strong opinions about this subject constantly spreading their lil ole ass cheeks wide the fuck open to get fucked over by their employers but they never chuck the deuces.

This.

And to answer your question, North, yes I would have divorced my ex if he asked to be able to have other partners. Our vows also included the phrase "and forsaking all others..." If he wanted to bed other women, it was them or me. Period. He knew that from the get-go.

PS Great to see you back, Pixie. Sorry you've been having a rough time. Hoping things improve for you.

Your vows also included "for better and for worse" I guess that doesn't mean anything.

Not all men think or believe this way. Give the ladies credit for understanding that. I happen to believe there are men out there who value loyalty and fidelity. Do they think about or fantasize about getting with other women? Sure. But thinking about it and doing it are two different things. One gives in to the selfish desire with little thought to the pain he will cause, the other respects his vows and his wife and refrains. (This goes for women who cheat as well.)

We are going to flip this again.

Your Husband pulls you to the side on a serious note "Babe this been bothering me for a long time and I just got to tell you.... I have objectum sexuality... I have a strong attraction to objects and even like to have sex with them"

I don't even have to ask, your ass would not leave him! I don't care if you caught him in the middle of the act butt nekkid like this Nip/Tuck episode

[YOUTUBE]rGU7MlDYgXA[/YOUTUBE]

your ass is still not leaving him but you would chalk it as some wierd sexual kink of his.

 

[APPIAH]

Is Utah not in America? Don't men there marry more than one wife and procreate like rabbits?. Who said marrying more than one is a non western concept? Assuming if that is the case and it is being insinuated that it should be practiced, should female genital mutilation be embraced too or are we being selective with regards to the things we embrace from non-western culture?

 

[christine dubois]

Rather than linking articles, how about we talk about what we actually do in our own lives? Statistics are all very well, but I think most people here are older than post grad(21-26ish is post grad, I think?) and frankly, people lie.

From what I've seen on this forum, at least one of the men here cheats on his wife regularly and feels it works as long as she never knows and that what he's doing makes them both happy, so what about everyone else? Would you, could you, do you, have you?

Over decades I am working with male colleagues and I can say that I don't know one that is not cheating on his wife/girl-friend.

Open relationships can only work for mature people, otherwise, if you destroy the illusion of monogamy, we would die out. Which woman wants to have a baby with a man who tells her that she isn't his wife, just her turn?

I think that after several years a man and many times also the woman is bored, people are searching for new adventures and then some people separate/divorce, others decide not to leave their spouse (maybe because of the fear to lose their kids, family or they still love their partner). But they cannot talk about their problem, because they know that their partner will never have any understanding for this desire.

I've met several couples in swinger clubs and it is difficult for both of them, but mostly for the men.

All my relationships and my 15yr marriage ended because of cheating on me. Today I see it different, it's not that important for me anymore. I couldn't bear an affair, but if he has an ONS somewhere, I don't care, but I am talking to him about that topic before and if it is important to him to be with other women- I want the same right for me

 

[Ches]

The "for better or for worse" part of the vows is in effect as long as the "forsaking all others" part is. In my case, the decision to end the marriage was his anyway, not mine. I paid a dear price due to his cheating. More than you will ever know.

You are absolutely right shit happens so why are folks so unreasonable when it comes to their spouse sleeping with others? I ain't trying to hear no bullshit about "vows". Peoples opinions and stances constantly evolve thru life.

I see the very same people with such strong opinions about this subject constantly spreading their lil ole ass cheeks wide the fuck open to get fucked over by their employers but they never chuck the deuces.



Your vows also included "for better and for worse" I guess that doesn't mean anything.



We are going to flip this again.

Your Husband pulls you to the side on a serious note "Babe this been bothering me for a long time and I just got to tell you.... I have objectum sexuality... I have a strong attraction to objects and even like to have sex with them"

I don't even have to ask, your ass would not leave him! I don't care if you caught him in the middle of the act butt nekkid like this Nip/Tuck episode

[YOUTUBE]rGU7MlDYgXA[/YOUTUBE]

your ass is still not leaving him but you would chalk it as some wierd sexual kink of his.

 

[Loki]

Have you SEEN the average middle aged guy? Seriously? You think beer bellies, grey or balding and wrinkles are what women signed on for? Does she have a right to cheat on your ass if you gain 15 pounds? Without even having put your body through multiple pregnancies and births? What if your hair falls out? What if your dick goes limp?

No, it wouldnt be reasonable. It would be reasonable for men to grow the fuck up and stop living in the fantasies of lad mags. People age. People get sick. Shit happens. Marry your best friend, make sure that person stays your best friend, and be a grown up.

I disagree that it is immature and living in a fantasy world for a spouse to expect their mate to continue to care about their physical appearance and maintain physical fitness for health reasons throughout their relationship.

I agree that marriage means for "better or worse, in sickness and health", disease, injuries/accidents can happen to anyone at anytime. If tragedy strikes, I believe your vows mean that you stick by your spouse. That being said, in-shape, physically fit women do exist in the real world not just in magazines at ALL AGES, and preference for such a woman does not mean a man is being unreasonable or immature.

 

[The Dark King]

Big daddy Loki dropping that knowledge like always. Good to see you posting sir.

I disagree that it is immature and living in a fantasy world for a spouse to expect their mate to continue to care about their physical appearance and maintain physical fitness for health reasons throughout their relationship.

I agree that marriage means for "better or worse, in sickness and health", disease, injuries/accidents can happen to anyone at anytime. If tragedy strikes, I believe your vows mean that you stick by your spouse. That being said, in-shape, physically fit women do exist in the real world not just in magazines at ALL AGES, and preference for such a woman does not mean a man is being unreasonable or immature.

 

[pettyofficerj]

I disagree that it is immature and living in a fantasy world for a spouse to expect their mate to continue to care about their physical appearance and maintain physical fitness for health reasons throughout their relationship.

I agree that marriage means for "better or worse, in sickness and health", disease, injuries/accidents can happen to anyone at anytime. If tragedy strikes, I believe your vows mean that you stick by your spouse. That being said, in-shape, physically fit women do exist in the real world not just in magazines at ALL AGES, and preference for such a woman does not mean a man is being unreasonable or immature.

Exactly

some people just become plum lazy which has nothing to do with health. If you're left in the wind because if that, you got no one to blame but yourself.

 

[goodlove]

:smt063 Gotcha.

Why men need to cheat


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/vicki-larson/why-men-need-to-cheat_b_1170015.html

Monogamy is failing men.

Not only is it failing them, but it's a "socially compelled sexual incarceration" that can lead to a life of anger and contempt, or so says Eric Anderson, an American sociologist at England's University of Winchester and author of the provocative new book, The Monogamy Gap: Men, Love, and the Reality of Cheating (Oxford University Press, $49.99).

Cheating, however, serves men pretty well. An undiscovered affair allows them to keep their relationship and emotional intimacy, and even if they're busted it's a lot easier than admitting that they wanted to screw someone else in the first place, he writes.

In his study of 120 undergraduate men, 78 percent of those who had a partner cheated, "even though they said that they loved and intended to stay with their partner." Contrary to what we may think, most men aren't cheating because they don't love their partner, he says; they cheat because they just want to have sex with others. And society shouldn't pooh-pooh that.

Monogamy's stronghold on our beliefs -- what he calls monogamism -- brings ostracism and judgment to anyone who questions or strays from its boundaries. That doesn't make sense to Anderson, who wonders why we stigmatize someone who has a fling more than couples who divorce -- throwing away a marriage rich in history and love, upsetting their kids' lives -- over something like sex.

Monogamy isn't the only "proper" way to be in a relationship, and he says it's time that society finds "multiple forms of acceptable sexual relationship types -- including sexually open relationships -- that coexist without hierarchy or hegemony." It's especially important for today's young men, for whom monogamous sex seems more boring than in generations past because of easy premarital sex and pornography.

Dr. Anderson was kind enough to answer my questions by email:

Your study includes just 120 undergraduate men, straight and gay; isn't that too small a sample to really know what's going on for men?

If I were attempting to determine what percent of men cheat, then, yes. Large-scale surveys show us that cheating remains the norm... I wanted to examine the very notion of monogamy, not morally, but rationally. I wanted to know why men want monogamy but nonetheless cheat.

You say men want to be emotionally monogamous, but their "body craves sex with other people somatically." People crave food, drugs, booze, sometimes to disastrous results. If there can be self-control with other cravings, why can't men control their body urges?

Humans are largely lousy at controlling our bodies' desires. We say we don't want to eat that Snickers bar, but we also really do want to eat it. We eat it, we feel guilty about it, and afterwards we promise ourselves not to eat one again; but we nonetheless do. It is this same phenomenon, only with cheating, that I explore.

The men in your study experienced a sharp decrease in the frequency and enjoyment of sex after two monogamous years. Since no one can sustain the kind of thrilling sex couples have in the beginning of a relationship, isn't it a healthy thing that it decreases?

I wish young men got two years of good sex before it dropped off; it's a lot less than that! It may, however, be good that the sexual desire for one's partner weans; it means that we end up staying with our long-term partners for the socioemotional connection and not for the sex. If a couple is going to raise a family, it is the emotional connection that counts, not the sexual.

Our physical desires don't die; they just change from our partner to people other than him/her. We falsely believe that when the sex dies, the relationship has also died. The reality is the opposite; when the sex dies the relationship has just begun.

What about the idea that long-term relationships make sex become deeper, more intimate and more meaningful?

The diminution of sex is simultaneous to one's emotional bonds growing stronger. Long-term partners may have more intimate sex (most just have very little) but when men see a guy or girl who turns them on, it's not intimate and meaningful sex they are craving.

Honesty is a huge part of a relationship. How good a relationship can one have when there's deception, especially since you say after men cheat spontaneously, they are more likely to plan cheating?

Honesty is good sometimes, and horrible other times. There are good reasons to lie; it is an essential skill for keeping community and relationship peace. The reason men lie about cheating is mostly because they know that if they ask for permission to have recreational sex: 1) they will be denied 2) after they are denied, they will be subject to scrutiny and increased relationship policing; 3) they will be stigmatized as immoral, and most likely broken up with. Thus, honesty doesn't meet their desires of having both a long-term partner and recreational sex with others.

The way cheating men see it, it's either cheat or don't cheat, but telling their partners they want sex outside the relationship, or telling their partners that they actually cheated, is viewed as a surefire way of achieving relationship termination. When men cheat for recreational sex -- not affairs -- they DO love their partners. If they didn't, they would break up with them.

Wouldn't it be less harmful to relationships if we became serial monogamists -- marrying two, three or four times as our sexual needs change?

Rather than marrying 20 times or more in one's life via serial monogamy, we can keep one emotional lover and just have casual, meaningless -- and hot -- sex with strangers. This gives us the long-term emotional stability we desire psychologically, alongside the hot, carnal sex we desire somatically. It makes much more sense than lying and cheating , or the difficulty of breaking up with a loved one simply because you want someone else's body for an hour.

Infidelity breaks up many marriages, but often it isn't the act of sex that's so upsetting -- it's the deception and lying, clearly problematic for the emotional intimacy you say men want. So cheating for sex may be "just about the sex" for him, but not for his partner.

Infidelity does not break marriages up; it is the unreasonable expectation that a marriage must restrict sex that breaks a marriage up. One of the reasons I wrote the book is that I've seen so many long-term relationships broken up simply because one had sex outside the relationship. But feeling victimized isn't a natural outcome of casual sex outside a relationship; it is a socialized victimhood. I'm not advocating cheating; I'm advocating open and equitable sexual relationships. When both in the couple desire this, when both realize that extradyadic sex makes their partner happy, and they therefore want their partner to have that sex, a couple will have moved a long ways toward facilitating emotional honesty, while simultaneously withering at jealousy scripts, which can be very damaging to a relationship. But if one can't achieve this with a partner that's hostile to the idea, cheating is the reasonable action.

Most of the men in your study were OK with sex on the side for them, but not their girlfriends. That seems unfair and incredibly selfish.

Monogamy is culturally compelled, so the decision has been made for us. How much of a chance would a man stand to have a second date if on the first date he said that he was interested in an open relationship? At the point men enter into relationships they, too, think they want monogamy. It's only after being in a relationship for months or years that they badly want sex with others. But by this point, they don't want to break up with their partners because they have long-standing love. Instead of chancing that love by asking for extradyadic sex, they cheat. If they don't get caught (and most don't) it's a rational choice.

But it is indeed selfish for men to want sex with others but not to want their partners to do the same. This however is not just a "man" thing. Women also cheat; they also lie about it; and they also want to be able to cheat without their partners doing the same. Monogamy is a problem for all sexes; it builds in an ownership script regardless of gender.

You say love is a "long-standing sense of security and comfort." So, wouldn't open relationships potentially pose a threat to that security since, even if couples play by their own sexual rules, there's always a chance one could end up preferring a new lover over one's partner?

People in open relationships structure their engagements as to reduce emotional intimacy. But, yes, of course it can happen. What I find from those in open relationships, however, is that once they have had sex with that person they fancied, they tend to get over them.
If we really want to prevent our lovers from developing the lust of others, or worse, emotional intimacy with others; if we really want to prevent men and women from cheating, we would be best to sex-segregate our jobs, our classrooms and social arenas, too. Emotional intimacy is the real threat to a relationship, not a one-off hour with a stranger from Craigslist. Ultimately, there are no guarantees that one's partner won't find love elsewhere. But controlling one's partner to prevent it only makes matters worse -- it makes them want to leave you. A better strategy is to be open, emotionally and perhaps sexually, too.

this is an article that needs to be retitled...why are women better cheaters. LOL

 

[Leksola]

Is Utah not in America? Don't men there marry more than one wife and procreate like rabbits?. Who said marrying more than one is a non western concept? Assuming if that is the case and it is being insinuated that it should be practiced, should female genital mutilation be embraced too or are we being selective with regards to the things we embrace from non-western culture?

Appiah brings it. If polygamy is not only a non-western, you are wrong and even if we assume that is not the case.. Still wrong! Rofl.

PJ I know you brought it up just to stir people but it's a valid topic.Tree pixie mentioned polyandry as a retort but it exists so rarely except in a few isolated environments. This is normally very cold places where there is an advantage to having more men to hunt because the land cannot be tilled and to keep birth rates low because the environment is very harsh. Poly marriages evolve from Agri- dependent societies, farming the land etc requires more labor so additional children are useful to a point.

As an aside lack of polyandry does not mean men always rule,
There are many matrilineal societies where inheritance and family line goes through the mother. Ashanti of Ghana might be one? Correct me here App.

Not sure about saying "non Muslim" it kind of pretends none live there.. I think you all mean "our legal system is not based in Islamic law"

App you know yourself those Utah people are Mormons, good point as that religion is US born and bred.

*sits in hut with flak jacket on, since I've said Mormons, Muslims, US And polygamy in the same paragraph lol*

 

[JordanC]

*sits in hut with flak jacket on, since I've said Mormons, Muslims, US And polygamy in the same paragraph lol*

:smt042

 

[swirlman07]

Appiah brings it. If polygamy is not only a non-western, you are wrong and even if we assume that is not the case.. Still wrong! Rofl.

PJ I know you brought it up just to stir people but it's a valid topic.Tree pixie mentioned polyandry as a retort but it exists so rarely except in a few isolated environments. This is normally very cold places where there is an advantage to having more men to hunt because the land cannot be tilled and to keep birth rates low because the environment is very harsh. Poly marriages evolve from Agri- dependent societies, farming the land etc requires more labor so additional children are useful to a point.

As an aside lack of polyandry does not mean men always rule,
There are many matrilineal societies where inheritance and family line goes through the mother. Ashanti of Ghana might be one? Correct me here App.

Not sure about saying "non Muslim" it kind of pretends none live there.. I think you all mean "our legal system is not based in Islamic law"

App you know yourself those Utah people are Mormons, good point as that religion is US born and bred.

*sits in hut with flak jacket on, since I've said Mormons, Muslims, US And polygamy in the same paragraph lol*

Certainly, he's aware as well that there's a law in the states that criminalizes a person marrying more than one person, Bigamy. Living in a democracy, the government doesn't exert control over individual people who decide to live a polyamorous life style, it's their choice. But, there can be problems for children of those relationships as has been seen in recent events.

 

[pettyofficerj]

Certainly, he's aware as well that there's a law in the states that criminalizes a person marrying more than one person, Bigamy. Living in a democracy, the government doesn't exert control over individual people who decide to live a polyamorous life style, it's their choice. But, there can be problems for children of those relationships as has been seen in recent events.

You guys give me too much credit

*drops mortar on leksola's hut*

 

[The Dark King]

Appiah brings it. If polygamy is not only a non-western, you are wrong and even if we assume that is not the case.. Still wrong! Rofl.

PJ I know you brought it up just to stir people but it's a valid topic.Tree pixie mentioned polyandry as a retort but it exists so rarely except in a few isolated environments. This is normally very cold places where there is an advantage to having more men to hunt because the land cannot be tilled and to keep birth rates low because the environment is very harsh. Poly marriages evolve from Agri- dependent societies, farming the land etc requires more labor so additional children are useful to a point.

As an aside lack of polyandry does not mean men always rule,
There are many matrilineal societies where inheritance and family line goes through the mother. Ashanti of Ghana might be one? Correct me here App.

Not sure about saying "non Muslim" it kind of pretends none live there.. I think you all mean "our legal system is not based in Islamic law"

App you know yourself those Utah people are Mormons, good point as that religion is US born and bred.

*sits in hut with flak jacket on, since I've said Mormons, Muslims, US And polygamy in the same paragraph lol*

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Leksola again.

 

[TreePixie]

I disagree that it is immature and living in a fantasy world for a spouse to expect their mate to continue to care about their physical appearance and maintain physical fitness for health reasons throughout their relationship.

I agree that marriage means for "better or worse, in sickness and health", disease, injuries/accidents can happen to anyone at anytime. If tragedy strikes, I believe your vows mean that you stick by your spouse. That being said, in-shape, physically fit women do exist in the real world not just in magazines at ALL AGES, and preference for such a woman does not mean a man is being unreasonable or immature.

It depends on what you mean, Loki. Going through multiple pregnancies can and sometimes does have an impact on a woman's body - some women can do it with ease, and others not so much - that's genetics. To expect eating sensibly and exercising to erase stretch marks, or to keep breasts firm, etc is not realistic. Men age as well. You can't help thinning hair - it's genetic for some men to go bald, and I would not expect a woman to cheat on her husband because he didn't win the genetic lottery.Men's erections also get softer as they age, and the refractory period gets longer. Women don't have an excuse to cheat because they prefer the firmness of a 25 year old dick over the softer erection of a 50 year old.

You mention tragedy - if illness strikes, there may be a physical impact depending on the disease. Does a man have an excuse to cheat because his wife has to have a mastectomy? Can a woman cheat if a man loses a testicle to cancer?

 

[satyr]

Note: Polygamy is illegal in all fifty states and the Mormon church outlawed it in the nineteenth century. The faction(s) of Mormonism (FLDS) where you'll find a version of polygamy still in practice largely exist outside of Utah, and those "marriages" are not recognized by the rule of law.

 

[satyr]

???

Jersey?

But from what I've seen of the multiple husband scenario the men are still required to take care of themselves.