The Nerdz Lounge.

[The Dark King]

Well their business model sucks because they aren't bringing in new/younger readers in order to account for the countless reboots and status quo changes that they do. The fan base they cater to are adults who have been reading comics for the last 30-40 years who get pissed off about any of the changes that Marvel and DC do, especially when it comes to any kind of diversity in the superhero universes.

Well I don't think anyone gets upset over the diversity as much as the reimaginig of a character. If the only way you can introduce a new female character is by turning Iron Man and Thor into women, they you need hire a new creativity staff.

 

[Ol'Skool Classic]

Well I don't think anyone gets upset over the diversity as much as the reimaginig of a character. If the only way you can introduce a new female character is by turning Iron Man and Thor into women, they you need hire a new creativity staff.

So the re-imagining of the the Golden Age Flash and Green Lantern into the now more recognized Silver Age versions should have never taken place?

Re-imagining characters for a whole new generation of readers is nothing new. The difference between some of the things that were done in decades past in that regard and now is the rise of "Adult Nerd Culture" and many belonging to it believing they are somehow entitled to the characters they grew up reading and they should remain exactly how they were when they initially discovered the characters.

 

[samson1701]

So the re-imagining of the the Golden Age Flash and Green Lantern into the now more recognized Silver Age versions should have never taken place?

Re-imagining characters for a whole new generation of readers is nothing new. The difference between some of the things that were done in decades past in that regard and now is the rise of "Adult Nerd Culture" and many belonging to it believing they are somehow entitled to the characters they grew up reading and they should remain exactly how they were when they initially discovered the characters.

I don't think there'd be anywhere near the level of uproar if these characters were re-imagined as white males. That fact that women and minorities are getting a shot at being top tier, standard bearing, heroes is the problem.

 

[Ol'Skool Classic]

I don't think there'd be anywhere near the level of uproar if these characters were re-imagined as white males. That fact that women and minorities are getting a shot at being top tier, standard bearing, heroes is the problem.

You know where Marvel fucked up? By deciding to not make the Ultimate Universe the main Marvel Universe of focus for the new millennium. They could have kept the original classic Marvel Universe intact, but no longer focus on it outside of occasional or yearly visits by mini-series focusing on specific characters rather than the status quo "EVENTS" that they keep rolling out each year. That way they could have re-imagined the Ultimate Marvel Universe with women and minorities as top tier characters out the gate.

 

[samson1701]

You know where Marvel fucked up? By deciding to not make the Ultimate Universe the main Marvel Universe of focus for the new millennium. They could have kept the original classic Marvel Universe intact, but no longer focus on it outside of occasional or yearly visits by mini-series focusing on specific characters rather than the status quo "EVENTS" that they keep rolling out each year. That way they could have re-imagined the Ultimate Marvel Universe with women and minorities as top tier characters out the gate.

I don't know. A lot of people, me included, didn't like the Ultimate Universe (these versions just didn't seem that heroic too me). That may have played into their decision to just bring over a few characters and scrap the rest.

What were their sales like towards the end?

 

[Ol'Skool Classic]

I don't know. A lot of people, me included, didn't like the Ultimate Universe (these versions just didn't seem that heroic too me). That may have played into their decision to just bring over a few characters and scrap the rest.

What were their sales like towards the end?

They didn't have to do the Ultimate Universe in the grim & gritty style that it was done in. They could have done it in the same manner as they are doing with the actual Marvel Universe.

It was already an alternate universe, so what would have stopped them from having Miles Morales being Spider-Man out right in that universe instead of Peter Parker or just made Peter Parker black as they did Nick Fury? Or rather than Bruce Banner becoming the Hulk it could have been Betty Ross? Think of the dynamic of Thunderbolt Ross hunting down the Hulk even though he knew it was his daughter? Steve Rogers could have been the original WWII Captain America, but either actually died at wars end or stayed frozen never too be found or actually aged normally to become old in the present, leading some one else to become Captain America, say Sam Wilson?

They could have easily done something along those lines considering what they are trying to do now as far as diversity goes.

 

[The Dark King]

So the re-imagining of the the Golden Age Flash and Green Lantern into the now more recognized Silver Age versions should have never taken place?

Re-imagining characters for a whole new generation of readers is nothing new. The difference between some of the things that were done in decades past in that regard and now is the rise of "Adult Nerd Culture" and many belonging to it believing they are somehow entitled to the characters they grew up reading and they should remain exactly how they were when they initially discovered the characters.

Well the adult nerds made it what is, if not for us there would be no characters to re-imagine. And seriously why can't they just introduce new characters its really not impossible. People act as if the world won't allow anything new to come in.

 

[SilverSmith]

Crisis with CADMUS brings Supergirl and Superman together on The CW. :smt023

 

[Ol'Skool Classic]

Well the adult nerds made it what is, if not for us there would be no characters to re-imagine.

How did adult nerds make it"what it is"? What is it exactly? And how can adult nerds claim characters that they didn't create? That's like saying George Lucas didn't create Star Wars or Gene Roddenberry Star Trek or J. K Rowling Harry Potter. So it's all about the fans & not the actual creators putting out good content, just put out fan service??? :shock:

 

[The Dark King]

How did adult nerds make it"what it is"? What is it exactly? And how can adult nerds claim characters that they didn't create? That's like saying George Lucas didn't create Star Wars or Gene Roddenberry Star Trek or J. K Rowling Harry Potter. So it's all about the fans & not the actual creators putting out good content, just put out fan service??? :shock:

We supported it and made it into the juggernauts that they are. If it weren't for the adult fans that supported all these characters through the decades they would have never been anything other than failed art. And I am not saying there shouldn't be more minorities and female characters I just don't get the reasoning behind changing beloved characters into something totally different. Back in the day if you wanted a female version of a character you'd create a Wonder Woman to Superman or Supergirl to Superman. Not swap out Superman entirely and call her Superwoman.
Like Arch has been saying for years we don't need to make Spiderman black how about introduce a totally new dope character like Static Shock. Did we need to mane Ironman into a 15 year old black girl in order to tell the story of a 15 year old genius black girl? Is creativity that dead that the only way to make it interesting is to simply change sex or color?

 

[MilkandCoffee]

Static Shock was cool for a minute and only a minute. New characters will only hold fan's attention for so long, after the hype is over they'll beg for oldies like spiderman and batman again.

 

[Ol'Skool Classic]

We supported it and made it into the juggernauts that they are. If it weren't for the adult fans that supported all these characters through the decades they would have never been anything other than failed art. And I am not saying there shouldn't be more minorities and female characters I just don't get the reasoning behind changing beloved characters into something totally different. Back in the day if you wanted a female version of a character you'd create a Wonder Woman to Superman or Supergirl to Superman. Not swap out Superman entirely and call her Superwoman.
Like Arch has been saying for years we don't need to make Spiderman black how about introduce a totally new dope character like Static Shock. Did we need to mane Ironman into a 15 year old black girl in order to tell the story of a 15 year old genius black girl? Is creativity that dead that the only way to make it interesting is to simply change sex or color?

You do realize that many of the adult comic fans that you are holding up as making the characters the juggernauts that they are are also the ones now making creative decisions and creating content, right? Even many of the ones making a lot of the business level decisions?

 

[The Dark King]

You do realize that many of the adult comic fans that you are holding up as making the characters the juggernauts that they are are also the ones now making creative decisions and creating content, right? Even many of the ones making a lot of the business level decisions?

Many or very few?
And they're just trying to get new business they aren't concerned about art or great stories

 

[The Dark King]

Static Shock was cool for a minute and only a minute. New characters will only hold fan's attention for so long, after the hype is over they'll beg for oldies like spiderman and batman again.

I totally disagree look at Young Justice as an example. All new characters that answer the question what was it like for their older counterparts growing up with these powers. And Static Shock was written pretty badly way too much 90s cheese to be really successful then again most of those shows only got 2 or 3 seasons so it was in line with the times.

 

[Ol'Skool Classic]

Many or very few?
And they're just trying to get new business they aren't concerned about art or great stories

Many.


And comics have always been a business. It has never been about the art or story telling. That's why they've never had any problems re-imagining characters through the decades for a new generation of readers until the 80's/90's generation of comic readers started to continue following comics beyond their teens unlike previous generations.

 

[MilkandCoffee]

I totally disagree look at Young Justice as an example. All new characters that answer the question what was it like for their older counterparts growing up with these powers. And Static Shock was written pretty badly way too much 90s cheese to be really successful then again most of those shows only got 2 or 3 seasons so it was in line with the times.

And where is young justice today? cancelled, because the toys couldn't sell well enough. Static was a product of his time just like batman but unlike batman static couldn't survive past the early 2000s.

Meanwhile spiderman, batman, and superman get renewed and "re-imagined" every year. That's what most fans want, majority rules.

 

[The Dark King]

And where is young justice today? cancelled, because the toys couldn't sell well enough. Static was a product of his time just like batman but unlike batman static couldn't survive past the early 2000s.

Meanwhile spiderman, batman, and superman get renewed and "re-imagined" every year. That's what most fans want, majority rules.

First off fans loved Young Justice and like you said it still got cancelled. The show was quality and deserved at least another 3 seasons.

And comparing Static to Batman is totally baseless. One of the original superheroes that gets all kinds of resources funneled into it ain't the same as a cartoon with a shoe string budget.

The selling of merch shouldn't be the difference between quality story telling and animation and recycled nonsense. The viewership for Young Justice was huge so its not like they didn't have an audience it just didn't match the business model of using the tv show as a 30 minute commercial for toys.

 

[MilkandCoffee]

First off fans loved Young Justice and like you said it still got cancelled. The show was quality and deserved at least another 3 seasons.

And comparing Static to Batman is totally baseless. One of the original superheroes that gets all kinds of resources funneled into it ain't the same as a cartoon with a shoe string budget.

The selling of merch shouldn't be the difference between quality story telling and animation and recycled nonsense. The viewership for Young Justice was huge so its not like they didn't have an audience it just didn't match the business model of using the tv show as a 30 minute commercial for toys.

Fans love whatever you throw at them, they're like pigs. They may have preferences but they'll take what they can get. The viewership may have been good but evidently the payout wasn't good enough to fund the show.

I compared static to batman because that's the whole argument. Static has to start somewhere just like the original superheros did. Batman had trouble getting off the ground too but he made it, he's had a bumpy run over the years. Batman wasn't always everyone's favorite anti-hero. Static has been having a hard time regaining his original popularity. Maybe he'll make a comeback or maybe he'll fall into the abyss with the other one-time heroes. Time will tell.

The selling of merch is what gets these shows on air to begin with. No one wants to broadcast something that won't make back their money. I agree that it shouldn't get in the way of quality writing but that just quantity vs. quality in the business world. Young Justice was a quality show, but networks would prefer to fund something like Teen Titans Go which probably doesn't have as large of a per episode budget. More episodes for the same or less price while still being marketable to the same or similar target audience.

 

[The Dark King]

Fans love whatever you throw at them, they're like pigs. They may have preferences but they'll take what they can get. The viewership may have been good but evidently the payout wasn't good enough to fund the show.

I compared static to batman because that's the whole argument. Static has to start somewhere just like the original superheros did. Batman had trouble getting off the ground too but he made it, he's had a bumpy run over the years. Batman wasn't always everyone's favorite anti-hero. Static has been having a hard time regaining his original popularity. Maybe he'll make a comeback or maybe he'll fall into the abyss with the other one-time heroes. Time will tell.

The selling of merch is what gets these shows on air to begin with. No one wants to broadcast something that won't make back their money. I agree that it shouldn't get in the way of quality writing but that just quantity vs. quality in the business world. Young Justice was a quality show, but networks would prefer to fund something like Teen Titans Go which probably doesn't have as large of a per episode budget. More episodes for the same or less price while still being marketable to the same or similar target audience.

That makes no sense to me because why invest in any live action shows that don't sell merch? They sell advertising space, if the viewership is there they can make their money with advertising and Young Justice wasn't even in the same time slot as Teen Titans. It was meant for a teenage audience who don't typically buy toys anyway. Just a lot of short sighted execs. And the comparison to Batman is still unfair considering they poured decades worth of resources to get that character off the ground. The recent Marvel Shows on Netflix has shown us if written well good characters make a huge splash. The model needs to catch up with the times.

 

[MilkandCoffee]

That makes no sense to me because why invest in any live action shows that don't sell merch? They sell advertising space, if the viewership is there they can make their money with advertising and Young Justice wasn't even in the same time slot as Teen Titans. It was meant for a teenage audience who don't typically buy toys anyway. Just a lot of short sighted execs. And the comparison to Batman is still unfair considering they poured decades worth of resources to get that character off the ground. The recent Marvel Shows on Netflix has shown us if written well good characters make a huge splash. The model needs to catch up with the times.

Live-action shows do sell merch they just don't rely on it the same way animated shows do. Animated shows also have to make back the money they spend on animating their series as well. Animation budgets are very expensive especially for high quality animation. If Young justice didn't have the quality animation it did it could have probably got by even with mediocre toy sales. I compared it to TTG because many fans assume that show was its replacement (as a DC superhero show not as a gritty teen-drama). You could compare it to Nick's Legend of Korra which had twice as many seasons with a similar target audience and animation quality. But Nick pulled the plug on that show for similar reasons.

If you don't like the batman comparison than let's compare Static to Harley Quinn instead. Harley is a little over 20 years old as a character yet she's very popular to fans. Static has been around for about the same amount of time yet he doesn't hold a candle. Fans aren't begging for Static like they are Harley Quinn.

The netflix shows are still recent and they get a lot of help from the resurgence of superhero popularity thanks to the MCU (which they are technically apart of). Once the superhero fad passes and people still know who Jessica Jones and Luke Cage are then we'll talk.