Random Conversation

[vanilla2chai]

I was going to post something else but really i can't be bothered....amendment protection and all...what a load of crap,,,only in America

 

[Bliss]

Some people are very comfortable around firearms, and some clearly are not. Fortunately it's not compulsory that you own a firearm, so if you don't like them, don't buy one. I was brought up to know how to use one responsibly, and growing up I remember there were always a couple rifles stacked in the corner of the parlour and my grandfather had a .357 Magnum in his bedroom & a shotgun in the gun rack in his pickup, and all were loaded at all times. I would have never touched any of them, nor would any other child in my family, because we knew they weren't toys and adult supervision was required should we desire to shoot one. It should be required that anyone purchasing a firearm demonstrate that they know how to use it properly and competently. If you can't hit the broad side of a barn, it's not going to do you any good even if you manage to have the nerve to use it.




I have no problem having a gun in the house, as both my children are also aware of how to use one responsibly. I also have zero problem shooting someone should they enter my house without an invitation. I value human life, however if you enter my home without an invitation as far as I'm concerned you deserve what you get, and if I kill you in the process that's on you. Self-defense and defense of my children and the people I love are my highest priorities in that type of situation, and I'd shoot an intruder without hesitation, and without an ounce of remorse.

If you know how to use a firearm well, it's your best option against an intruder IMO. A blade requires that you get close enough to do some damage, so useful if you're sneaking up on someone but not so effective if you have to face them, and frankly I'd prefer to shoot someone from cover at a safer distance. I had a cousin who detested guns and insisted on keeping a baseball bat for self-defense, which IMO is equally stupid as you have to get close enough to hit the intruder, and if that happens to be a man, and you don't get lucky enough to take him from behind, there's a very good chance he'll take it away from you because odds are he's got greater upper body strength. I remember my grandfather and my uncle trying to talk her into getting a handgun instead of the bat and my grandfather told her that the only thing more embarassing than being disarmed, was getting beaten to death with your own weapon.

Bottomline, whatever you're comfortable with, and know how to use well, will likely be effective for you. If guns scare you, then there's no point in owning one as you're unlikely to use it. Get a dog and an alarm system and you'll likely be fine. If you aren't planning on breaking into someone else's house then you don't need to worry about whether they have a gun as part of their home security plan. Some states have concealed carry laws, Oklahoma is one of them, however that doesn't mean the majority of people are packin', so I think your chances of being shot by some random loon wandering the street channeling their inner Dirty Harry are slim.

Well stated, as usual.

 

[Bookworm616]

I am absolutely pro-gun. As with Espy's family, I grew up around guns. I went skeet shooting as a kid, I went to the firing range, all that stuff. I was also taught to respect guns. My nephew, who was 6 years younger than me, and living in our house, was shown the guns that were in the house, and told never to touch them. And he never did.

I think when people are afraid of them and keep them hidden from kids (and you know kids will find them), that type of situation breeds curiosity and curiosity increases the chances of a tragic incident happening, IMHO.

As for this argument, we can all go back and forth until we're blue in the face, but at the end of the day, the pro-gun people are still going to be pro-gun and the anti-gun people will still be anti-gun.

And as Espy said, if you aren't comfortable around guns, that's cool, then get yourself a dog and ADT and you'll be fine. But don't take my right to bear arms away from me. That's all I ask. I'd likely have a dog, ADT, AND a gun in my house. LOL.

And yeah, there's no way I'd want to attempt to use a knife on an intruder as I'd have to get close to him/her for it to be effective and I'm not trained in hand-to-hand combat. LOL.

 

[The Dark King]

I am absolutely pro-gun. As with Espy's family, I grew up around guns. I went skeet shooting as a kid, I went to the firing range, all that stuff. I was also taught to respect guns. My nephew, who was 6 years younger than me, and living in our house, was shown the guns that were in the house, and told never to touch them. And he never did.

I think when people are afraid of them and keep them hidden from kids (and you know kids will find them), that type of situation breeds curiosity and curiosity increases the chances of a tragic incident happening, IMHO.

As for this argument, we can all go back and forth until we're blue in the face, but at the end of the day, the pro-gun people are still going to be pro-gun and the anti-gun people will still be anti-gun.

And as Espy said, if you aren't comfortable around guns, that's cool, then get yourself a dog and ADT and you'll be fine. But don't take my right to bear arms away from me. That's all I ask. I'd likely have a dog, ADT, AND a gun in my house. LOL.

And yeah, there's no way I'd want to attempt to use a knife on an intruder as I'd have to get close to him/her for it to be effective and I'm not trained in hand-to-hand combat. LOL.

You know what's funny is I use to be totally anti gun. Like DB I didn't get why citizens needed guns. I figures if they banned guns the production would go down and less guns would be on the streets. Boy was I wrong. Criminals will always find a way to get guns especially in country that's been producing guns for centuries. Even if they were banned today there's still millions unaccounted for on the streets and I learned that the hard way. Three years ago a dude came to my house with gun because we were fucking the same girl and he got sensitive about it. If his "getaway" driver wasn't someone I was cool with who vouched for me I'd be dead. I would have opened in my door at 1 am because I live in a very white suburb and always felt safe. After that situation I pro gun like my middle name is NRA. I'd much rather have it and never need it than need it and not have it. Sorry isn't gonna cut when you're holding a dead loved one in your arms.

 

[satyr]

You and Tyrone, Leroy, or whoever were fucking the same skank and he almost killed you over it. That is an awesome and moving story, so I take it you regularly answer your door with a .45 Magnum these days?

You know what's funny is I use to be totally anti gun. Like DB I didn't get why citizens needed guns. I figures if they banned guns the production would go down and less guns would be on the streets. Boy was I wrong. Criminals will always find a way to get guns especially in country that's been producing guns for centuries. Even if they were banned today there's still millions unaccounted for on the streets and I learned that the hard way. Three years ago a dude came to my house with gun because we were fucking the same girl and he got sensitive about it. If his "getaway" driver wasn't someone I was cool with who vouched for me I'd be dead. I would have opened in my door at 1 am because I live in a very white suburb and always felt safe. After that situation I pro gun like my middle name is NRA. I'd much rather have it and never need it than need it and not have it. Sorry isn't gonna cut when you're holding a dead loved one in your arms.

 

[The Dark King]

You and Tyrone, Leroy, or whoever were fucking the same skank and he almost killed you over it. That is an awesome and moving story, so I take it you regularly answer your door with a .45 Magnum these days?

A Remmington 870 tactical shotgun actually. If it's past 5 and I'm not expecting anyone yeah either that or my hunting knife. It's no secret that I'm paranoid.

 

[TheHuntress]

You know what's funny is I use to be totally anti gun. Like DB I didn't get why citizens needed guns. I figures if they banned guns the production would go down and less guns would be on the streets. Boy was I wrong. Criminals will always find a way to get guns especially in country that's been producing guns for centuries. Even if they were banned today there's still millions unaccounted for on the streets and I learned that the hard way. Three years ago a dude came to my house with gun because we were fucking the same girl and he got sensitive about it. If his "getaway" driver wasn't someone I was cool with who vouched for me I'd be dead. I would have opened in my door at 1 am because I live in a very white suburb and always felt safe. After that situation I pro gun like my middle name is NRA. I'd much rather have it and never need it than need it and not have it. Sorry isn't gonna cut when you're holding a dead loved one in your arms.

Thanks for proving my point about why random jackoffs shouldn't have guns.

As soon as everyone has to have psych evals and chips, I won't think twice about guns (which I know will never happen, because the NRA people will freak the hell out over having to prove that they're capable of handling a deadly weapon). Then, I don't care who owns a gun, cause I know that if that shit goes off, the information will be stored in your chip and you can't get away with a goddamn thing if you kill someone. I don't think you should be able to walk into a store and buy a gun. Could you walk into a store and buy a bomb? No. Can you walk into the store and buy arsenic? No. Can you walk into a store and buy an iron maiden? FUCKING NO.

Why is it so difficult to understand that guns should not be available to just anyone? The whole amendment about right to bear arms had to do with a time period in history during which King George's army oppressed the colonists, and thus the Founding Father's saw that an armed militia of people were much better suited to fight than a professional one because they knew the ins and outs of the lands they lived. They could hide in places professional military couldn't because they were so familiar with the landscape. The purpose of the amendment is for a militia to defend the country. At this point, we have an army. We don't need every tom, dick, and jim bob carrying around a concealed weapon or keeping a gun rack in the house because the very reason the amendment exists is now moot.

 

[The Dark King]

Thanks for proving my point about why random jackoffs shouldn't have guns.

As soon as everyone has to have psych evals and chips, I won't think twice about guns (which I know will never happen, because the NRA people will freak the hell out over having to prove that they're capable of handling a deadly weapon). Then, I don't care who owns a gun, cause I know that if that shit goes off, the information will be stored in your chip and you can't get away with a goddamn thing if you kill someone. I don't think you should be able to walk into a store and buy a gun. Could you walk into a store and buy a bomb? No. Can you walk into the store and buy arsenic? No. Can you walk into a store and buy an iron maiden? FUCKING NO.

Why is it so difficult to understand that guns should not be available to just anyone? The whole amendment about right to bear arms had to do with a time period in history during which King George's army oppressed the colonists, and thus the Founding Father's saw that an armed militia of people were much better suited to fight than a professional one because they knew the ins and outs of the lands they lived. They could hide in places professional military couldn't because they were so familiar with the landscape. The purpose of the amendment is for a militia to defend the country. At this point, we have an army. We don't need every tom, dick, and jim bob carrying around a concealed weapon or keeping a gun rack in the house because the very reason the amendment exists is now moot.

1. The guy who came to my house with a gun purchased that shit ILLEGALLY he didn't buy it from a gun store.

2. You can't buy a constructed bomb but you can sure as hell buy the material.

3. You can ban guns all you want but there are still millions of illegal hand guns out there so basically your logic would ensure guns would be in the hands of people who would do the most harm and those who want it to defend their families shouldn't have one?

4. Lunatics don't need guns to kill people. They're crazy they figure out other ways, the could as easily set your house on fire as do a spree killing. There was a female serial killer in the 20th century who use to invite people to her bed and breakfast and leave the gas on and kill them in their sleep. She didn't need a gun to do it. The idea banning guns in a country that's had it for as long as we have would actually reduce gun crimes is uninformed and ridiculous.

5. As the only one who I know of that has a Poli Sci degree on this forum let me inform you that the second Amendment was more about the citizens having a way to protect against an oppressive government than outside invaders. Another reason why they also spoke out against soldiers quartering in your private homes. That wasn't just for the Brits but domestic militaries as well.

 

[TheHuntress]

1. The guy who came to my house with a gun purchased that shit ILLEGALLY he didn't buy it from a gun store.

2. You can't buy a constructed bomb but you can sure as hell buy the material.

And the government is all up your ass about what you're doing with the materials.

3. You can ban guns all you want but there are still millions of illegal hand guns out there so basically your logic would ensure guns would be in the hands of people who would do the most harm and those who want it to defend their families shouldn't have one?

I told you. If you had to be chipped, if you were caught with a gun that wasn't chipped, it was an immediate 18 months in jail. Do not pass go. Do not collect $200. And you can save the lawyer fees, cause you're not getting out of it. I fully support the idea of random searches and raids to get illegal guns off the streets.

4. Lunatics don't need guns to kill people. They're crazy they figure out other ways, the could as easily set your house on fire as do a spree killing. There was a female serial killer in the 20th century who use to invite people to her bed and breakfast and leave the gas on and kill them in their sleep. She didn't need a gun to do it. The idea banning guns in a country that's had it for as long as we have would actually reduce gun crimes is uninformed and ridiculous.

So, how would a gun have helped you in that situation, exactly? If someone is going to kill you, then they're just going to kill you. Sometimes it's in the cards for you. However, you've got a much better chance in hand to hand than if someone has a gun. It only takes a moment of panic to pull the trigger to do something stupid.

5. As the only one who I know of that has a Poli Sci degree on this forum let me inform you that the second Amendment was more about the citizens having a way to protect against an oppressive government than outside invaders. Another reason why they also spoke out against soldiers quartering in your private homes. That wasn't just for the Brits but domestic militaries as well.

Just because you have a poli sci degree, doesn't mean you just get to make shit up. That amendment was created because the founding fathers thought an armed militia was better than a professional army. You can look that up in the history books. They felt that people who knew their own landscape were better equipped to defend it. Plain and simple.

 

[The Dark King]

And the government is all up your ass about what you're doing with the materials.



I told you. If you had to be chipped, if you were caught with a gun that wasn't chipped, it was an immediate 18 months in jail. Do not pass go. Do not collect $200. And you can save the lawyer fees, cause you're not getting out of it. I fully support the idea of random searches and raids to get illegal guns off the streets.



So, how would a gun have helped you in that situation, exactly? If someone is going to kill you, then they're just going to kill you. Sometimes it's in the cards for you. However, you've got a much better chance in hand to hand than if someone has a gun. It only takes a moment of panic to pull the trigger to do something stupid.



Just because you have a poli sci degree, doesn't mean you just get to make shit up. That amendment was created because the founding fathers thought an armed militia was better than a professional army. You can look that up in the history books. They felt that people who knew their own landscape were better equipped to defend it. Plain and simple.

The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.-Thomas Jefferson

"Laws that forbid the carrying of arms . . . disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes . . . Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man."
--Thomas Jefferson, quoting Cesare Beccaria in On Crimes and Punishment (1764).
Now what was that genius? I await your public apology

 

[The Dark King]

And the government is all up your ass about what you're doing with the materials.



I told you. If you had to be chipped, if you were caught with a gun that wasn't chipped, it was an immediate 18 months in jail. Do not pass go. Do not collect $200. And you can save the lawyer fees, cause you're not getting out of it. I fully support the idea of random searches and raids to get illegal guns off the streets.



So, how would a gun have helped you in that situation, exactly? If someone is going to kill you, then they're just going to kill you. Sometimes it's in the cards for you. However, you've got a much better chance in hand to hand than if someone has a gun. It only takes a moment of panic to pull the trigger to do something stupid.



Just because you have a poli sci degree, doesn't mean you just get to make shit up. That amendment was created because the founding fathers thought an armed militia was better than a professional army. You can look that up in the history books. They felt that people who knew their own landscape were better equipped to defend it. Plain and simple.

Sorry I missed all your other horseshit

You really want chips and unwarranted search and seizures?
As the Muslims in this country how well the Patriot Act is working out for them. Smh.
Any fool willing to give up his liberties for the illusion of safety isn't one who deserved it in the first place.

They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.
---Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759.

Like I keep saying it's better to have a gun that you'll never need then to be in a dyer situation without one. I seriously pray you never have to find out.
Why do liberals like yourself want to take guns away from citizens?

 

[swirlman07]

The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.-Thomas Jefferson

Now what was that genius? I await your public apology

I don't see a reason for an apology. We don't face a government similar to that experienced by those early Americans, though someone admittedly as paranoid as yourself might disagree. The second Amendment doesn't guarantee anyone a right to arm themselves. In fact, there was concern about the ability of citizens to protect themselves from foreign invaders, not something that we fear at this juncture with a standing army, the National Guard and policemen.

 

[The Dark King]

I don't see a reason for an apology. We don't face a government similar to that experienced by those early Americans, though someone admittedly as paranoid as yourself might disagree. The second Amendment doesn't guarantee anyone a right to arm themselves. In fact, there was concern about the ability of citizens to protect themselves from foreign invaders, not something that we fear at this juncture with a standing army, the National Guard and policemen.

Well then you haven't been paying attention. And yes it does guarantee the right to bare arms. That's the exact wording. I never said it wasn't for foreign invaders I'm just saying it was for citizens to protect themselves against the government if needs be. Let me also point out that Jefferson said that almost 20 years after the Revolutionary War was over. And like I said before what's the harm in just keeping one in the house for protection. I'm not advocating carry licenses just the ability to protect my home and my loved ones.

 

[swirlman07]

Well then you haven't been paying attention. And yes it does guarantee the right to bare arms. That's the exact wording. I never said it wasn't for foreign invaders I'm just saying it was for citizens to protect themselves against the government if needs be. Let me also point out that Jefferson said that almost 20 years after the Revolutionary War was over. And like I said before what's the harm in just keeping one in the house for protection. I'm not advocating carry licenses just the ability to protect my home and my loved ones.

You are wrong, it does not guarantee the right to bear arms. That's your interpretation of the wording. There was good reason for those oppressed citizens to feel they needed protection from the government. Unless you're considering another Revolutionary War, I don't see a need for that same protection against the government. I'm sure that with the war still fresh in the history of the country, there was still concern about government, any government, so I'm not surprised at his statement. Again, I don't see a parallel.

I just happen to believe that guns give a false sense of security. As I mentioned I believe that the downsides outweigh the upsides, the potential for accidental shootings, the ease of settling arguments with violence or crimes of passion, theft of the guns that fall into the hands of criminals and intruders prompted to use deadly force because homeowners have guns as well.

 

[The Dark King]

You are wrong, it does not guarantee the right to bear arms. That's your interpretation of the wording. There was good reason for those oppressed citizens to feel they needed protection from the government. Unless you're considering another Revolutionary War, I don't see a need for that same protection against the government. I'm sure that with the war still fresh in the history of the country, there was still concern about government, any government, so I'm not surprised at his statement. Again, I don't see a parallel.

I just happen to believe that guns give a false sense of security. As I mentioned I believe that the downsides outweigh the upsides, the potential for accidental shootings, the ease of settling arguments with violence or crimes of passion, theft of the guns that fall into the hands of criminals and intruders prompted to use deadly force because homeowners have guns as well.

Your point would only be valid if criminals got all their guns from stealing them from legal gun owners or the never shot innocent unarmed people which they do.

I think you also forget that most of the Patriots lived under a monarchy which had no checks and balances and knew how tyrannical an oppressive regime could be.

 

[swirlman07]

Your point would only be valid if criminals got all their guns from stealing them from legal gun owners or the never shot innocent unarmed people which they do.

I think you also forget that most of the Patriots lived under a monarchy which had no checks and balances and knew how tyrannical an oppressive regime could be.

Your response suggests that you don't believe any of the various downsides I mentioned actually occur? All of those potential problems exist in the case of legal gun ownership, yes?

I don't see how you came to the conclusion that I didn't recognize the tyranny experienced by the patriots when I specifically stated that as the reason for the Jefferson's quote, or any others for that matter?

 

[The Dark King]

I wasn't refering to colonial days but actually living in England under an oppressive regime.
Legal gun ownership doesn't cause as big of a problem as you suggest.

Your response suggests that you don't believe any of the various downsides I mentioned actually occur? All of those potential problems exist in the case of legal gun ownership, yes?

I don't see how you came to the conclusion that I didn't recognize the tyranny experienced by the patriots when I specifically stated that as the reason for the Jefferson's quote, or any others for that matter?

 

[TreePixie]

Your point would only be valid if criminals got all their guns from stealing them from legal gun owners or the never shot innocent unarmed people which they do.

I think you also forget that most of the Patriots lived under a monarchy which had no checks and balances and knew how tyrannical an oppressive regime could be.

Not quite true. Constitutional monarchy is quite different than monarchy. It was, after all, Parliament which voted on things like the Stamp Act.

There is a view that the British people had already been taxed to death to pay for European wars, and that Parliament felt, especially after what we call the French & Indian War (also known as the Seven Years War) that the Americans should have their taxes raised to cover the cost of protecting them.

Your friendly neighborhood history geek

 

[TreePixie]

. And you can save the lawyer fees, cause you're not getting out of it. I fully support the idea of random searches and raids to get illegal guns off the streets.

Now that notion I find scary as hell. We're already dealing with a government which is too much in our business. Random search & seizure is a really good way to let the government get out of control and jail people for nothing. I don't break the law, but I sure as shit don't want the government randomly searching my house.

 

[vanilla2chai]

1. The guy who came to my house with a gun purchased that shit ILLEGALLY he didn't buy it from a gun store.

2. You can't buy a constructed bomb but you can sure as hell buy the material.

3. You can ban guns all you want but there are still millions of illegal hand guns out there so basically your logic would ensure guns would be in the hands of people who would do the most harm and those who want it to defend their families shouldn't have one?

4. Lunatics don't need guns to kill people. They're crazy they figure out other ways, the could as easily set your house on fire as do a spree killing. There was a female serial killer in the 20th century who use to invite people to her bed and breakfast and leave the gas on and kill them in their sleep. She didn't need a gun to do it. The idea banning guns in a country that's had it for as long as we have would actually reduce gun crimes is uninformed and ridiculous.

5. As the only one who I know of that has a Poli Sci degree on this forum let me inform you that the second Amendment was more about the citizens having a way to protect against an oppressive government than outside invaders. Another reason why they also spoke out against soldiers quartering in your private homes. That wasn't just for the Brits but domestic militaries as well.

I have one as well. And a few others.