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TreePixie said:
In many cases, the abuse happens so incrementally, it's hard to see it until you're in deep. The abuser has you questioning yourself....

I had an interesting phone call today, from the ex bf I spent 8 years with. I hadnt heard from him for a while, and I figured it was because his current gf didn't like the idea of me. But one of the reasons he hadn't called, it turns out, is that he was ashamed. He feels shame, because she's a nutcase, and he got dragged in so deep that it wound up as an emotionally abusive situation. It took him some time to understand what was going on. Since I'd been through it with my ex husband, I completely understood how he'd gotten sucked in. He knows he needs to get out, but he's a little afraid - the last time he tried to leave, she made a suicide attempt. I told him that's not his problem, and agreed to store some things for him (why he wants to store them 2000 miles away from home, I have no clue). She's managed to put distance between him and all of his friends, and completely trounced his relationship with his best friend of 35 years.

It happened slowly, one tiny step at a time. Each step was so small he'd have felt like a jerk making a big deal about it, it wouldnt have seemed reasonable. He's a very smart guy, and no pushover - clearly a pushover couldnt have dealt with me all those years - but now he's in a real mess, in debt, about to be out of a job, and living with an abusive crazy person. I feel for him - it's going to take a lot of work and a lot of strength to put his life back together again.

Abuse isn't a gender-based problem - men are emotionally and verbally abused, too. Some are physically abused.

It's a good thing for all people - men *and* women, to speak out against domestic violence in any form, and to learn to understand how easily it can happen to anyone, and how difficult it is to get out, stay out, and get your life back on track again.
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This is all I'm sayin'. I think when you point the finger at one group, rather than include all parties involved in the steps towards education, you run the risk of completely alienating them. Not to mention that people who would never hit someone often cannot fathom how anyone else could. I think that causes them to distance themselves from the issue, viewing it as not their problem.
 
TreePixie said:
Believe it or not, Drae, they fact that they don't joke around about it is a BIG FUCKING DEAL. Making jokes about domestic violence, all meant in jest, happens a lot - but the thing is that the abusers see that as making their actions normal, like it's ok. So the fact that you and the men you know don't make jokes? Gets a huge farking round of applause from me. THANK YOU. :smt008
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Don't get me wrong if its some type of physical comedy I will laugh my balls off but the whole "my wife burned her toast so I had to back hand her" just isn't funny to me. It comes off as some dude trying to act like he runs his house. Its lame.
But I am definitely not the kind of guy who thinks making fun of someone that's a woman is mysogny but that being the whole basis of the jokes is.
 
TreePixie said:
In many cases, the abuse happens so incrementally, it's hard to see it until you're in deep. The abuser has you questioning yourself....
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For argument sake, if we put psychology aside, even the "strong women" (or men) who do manage to leave, often can pay dearly. "Domestic" abuse isn't the simple, "I'm leaving you, bye!" that happens in relationships- you're dealing with a violent, often unstable man (or woman) who thinks so low of you that they feel comfortable to hit you, and you never can know the extent of their rage.

Even months later, men have exacted "revenge", hunting down their ex like an animal to execute them.
 
Kunoichi said:
For argument sake, if we put psychology aside, even the "strong women" (or men) who do manage to leave, often can pay dearly. "Domestic" abuse isn't the simple, "I'm leaving you, bye!" that happens in relationships- you're dealing with a violent, often unstable man (or woman) who thinks so low of you that they feel comfortable to hit you, and you never can know the extent of their rage.

Even months later, men have exacted "revenge", hunting down their ex like an animal to execute them.
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Here's where I get so confused. Aren't they just crazy then? I would think the mind set that would allow you to hunt someone down for leaving you is the same kind of personality that would shoot up an office for being fired or following someone home for cutting them off. No?
 
The Dark Knight said:
But what about the first time they abuse you?
The way I look at it is if I wouldn't accept the behavior from a stranger I sure as hell wouldn't accept it from you. YOU know better.
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Like I said, it's such a slow incremental process that by the time they actually raise a hand to you, you're convinced you deserve it, or you have no where to go, or you couldn't manage on your own, or you've been torn away from your support network or you have a baby or no money, etc....

The actual damage is done to you long before they hit you. In my case, because I'm a relentless bitch and a feminist, I stayed in an emotionally abusive situation far longer than was healthy, but I managed to keep my head above water because I understood what I was dealing with. When he decided it was ok to hit me, I had him removed from our home. I was scared to death on so many different levels, and I spent the next 2 years in a virtual hell having to deal with him through the courts, and every little revenge he took for anything which went my way. I also had to put up with his bullshit for 14 years until my son turned 18. If there are kids, the courts, as they told me outright, don't give a shit if he beats the hell outside of me outside of the courtroom as long as I didnt withhold visitation. So a lot of women with kids are afraid to leave - they're going to have to continue to deal with the abuser for decades in some cases. And leaving, they know, has pissed the guy off.

Some women with kids also are afraid to leave because they are afraid that the abuser will take out his anger on the children - if he has not abused the kids in the past they are not going to get supervised visitation, which means he'll be alone with the kids. The woman is afraid that the abuser will run with the kids, as many threaten to and as some do, afraid he will hurt the children out of revenge, as many threaten and some do, etc.

It's a very complex situation, and saying "Why not leave the first time he hits you" really misses the subtleties that go on in relationships like this.
 
The Dark Knight said:
Don't get me wrong if its some type of physical comedy I will laugh my balls off but the whole "my wife burned her toast so I had to back hand her" just isn't funny to me. It comes off as some dude trying to act like he runs his house. Its lame.
But I am definitely not the kind of guy who thinks making fun of someone that's a woman is mysogny but that being the whole basis of the jokes is.
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And you've got it right. Ferinstinz, I make fun of Michele Bachmann all the time, but I don't make fun of her *as* a woman, I make fun of her stupidity, not her tits, if that makes sense.
 
The Dark Knight said:
Here's where I get so confused. Aren't they just crazy then? I would think the mind set that would allow you to hunt someone down for leaving you is the same kind of personality that would shoot up an office for being fired or following someone home for cutting them off. No?
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Not sure. I would think though its like saying, 'You smack your child for misbehaving, so you'd have same kind of personality to smack a stranger's child for being rude to you". Not sure they intertwine.

The mindset is more like OWNERSHIP. " You belong to me", 'You are my wife and will do as I say!" "Till death do us part". "You will never leave me".

These same people can be fired and not shoot their boss.
 
TreePixie said:
Like I said, it's such a slow incremental process that by the time they actually raise a hand to you, you're convinced you deserve it, or you have no where to go, or you couldn't manage on your own, or you've been torn away from your support network or you have a baby or no money, etc....

The actual damage is done to you long before they hit you. In my case, because I'm a relentless bitch and a feminist, I stayed in an emotionally abusive situation far longer than was healthy, but I managed to keep my head above water because I understood what I was dealing with. When he decided it was ok to hit me, I had him removed from our home. I was scared to death on so many different levels, and I spent the next 2 years in a virtual hell having to deal with him through the courts, and every little revenge he took for anything which went my way. I also had to put up with his bullshit for 14 years until my son turned 18. If there are kids, the courts, as they told me outright, don't give a shit if he beats the hell outside of me outside of the courtroom as long as I didnt withhold visitation. So a lot of women with kids are afraid to leave - they're going to have to continue to deal with the abuser for decades in some cases. And leaving, they know, has pissed the guy off.

Some women with kids also are afraid to leave because they are afraid that the abuser will take out his anger on the children - if he has not abused the kids in the past they are not going to get supervised visitation, which means he'll be alone with the kids. The woman is afraid that the abuser will run with the kids, as many threaten to and as some do, afraid he will hurt the children out of revenge, as many threaten and some do, etc.

It's a very complex situation, and saying "Why not leave the first time he hits you" really misses the subtleties that go on in relationships like this.
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You guys make me want to call all the women in my family and check on them on the regular because this shit is soooo off the wall to me. So the problem to me seems more like a self esteem issue on both fronts. Little boys seeking to control their worlds by abusing their women and little girls who don't have the self worth to nip this shit in the bud from the first insult, the first sign of trouble.
 
The Dark Knight said:
If you're referring to my dad. I don't really consider him to be part of my life since we don't speak like that but to be even more accurate he hasn't laid a finger on my mom in nearly 20 years so my statement still holds true.
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So..because you don't consider him part of your life, he doesn't count, even though he and your mother still live together?

And how do you know he hasn't laid a hand on her in 20 years? Were you there for every single second of every single day? I doubt your mother would call you just to say 'Oh, I went to the market, picked up some pastries, and your dad beat me before lunch because I burnt the toast...'

C'mon. That's what we're talking about here.
 
The Dark Knight said:
You guys make me want to call all the women in my family and check on them on the regular because this shit is soooo off the wall to me. So the problem to me seems more like a self esteem issue on both fronts. Little boys seeking to control their worlds by abusing their women and little girls who don't have the self worth to nip this shit in the bud from the first insult, the first sign of trouble.
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I somewhat agree with this, though it doesn't apply to all situations. I would think that a person with a strong positive sense of self would not allow someone else to abuse them, nor seek to abuse someone else.
 
The Dark Knight said:
You guys make me want to call all the women in my family and check on them on the regular because this shit is soooo off the wall to me. So the problem to me seems more like a self esteem issue on both fronts. Little boys seeking to control their worlds by abusing their women and little girls who don't have the self worth to nip this shit in the bud from the first insult, the first sign of trouble.
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I wish I could explain it better, Drae. You know I don't have self esteem issues. Even being ME by the time he got done with me, if someone told me the sky was blue, I wouldnt have believed it without looking out the window myself.

Have you ever seen the old movie Gaslight?? If you haven't, it's a great film, and it also gives you a peek into how this emotional/mental stuff can work.

I will say I've never been a very trusting person, and after that marriage? I don't know that I'll ever really trust anyone again - and I've been out of the marriage 20 years. While my last LTR could be difficult because sometimes he was almost TOO honest about what went through his head, at least I wasn't being lied to. Lying to me is the fastest route out of my life because of what I went through.

As my post about my ex boyfriend indicated, this isn't just a gender thing - men can be emotionally abused as well.
 
Kunoichi said:
Interesting choice of words. You'd be surprised how much 'de-programing" goes on before an man abusive man will "strike".

There is usually 3 stages of the abuse cycle. The build up, the violence, the apology (the make-up). When tactics like initial showering of attention, followed by isolation and breaking their self-esteem, making them financially dependent, telling her she will never see her kids again if she leaves, etc., can you see how some women may not have the mental strength to simply "walk out the door"?

Sometimes too, a woman is made to feel by herself (or his family or even her family) that it's her fault she is being beaten and if she just behaved or didn't fuck up, he wouldn't hit her. So she'll stay to "fix it". Or him. So many dynamics.
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I don't dispute anything you've written, Kuno, and I have seen enough information on this subject to know that is indeed how some men go about it. However, that goes right back to my question of what makes some people tolerate that while others will not. It may start with emotional abuse, or threats, or psychological abuse, but it starts and with something that I would consider a negative in a relationship. I guess I don't understand why they don't just see it as a negative from the start and get out before it becomes dangerous? I think that's where personality comes into play, or psychological makeup, whatever it is that makes one person stay when another would sense the potential for danger and leave.
 
The Dark Knight said:
You guys make me want to call all the women in my family and check on them on the regular because this shit is soooo off the wall to me. So the problem to me seems more like a self esteem issue on both fronts. Little boys seeking to control their worlds by abusing their women and little girls who don't have the self worth to nip this shit in the bud from the first insult, the first sign of trouble.
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Even female Judges and female cops are victims of, and endure abuse - and they tell no-one. The shame sometimes is so great, the fear is sometimes so paralyzing.

Drae, even if you asked, a woman in your family may not tell...because she's afraid you will do something and she wants to protect you from his rage and ultimate harm. Real or imagined, this is how deep and fucked the dynamics run.
 
TheHuntress said:
So..because you don't consider him part of your life, he doesn't count, even though he and your mother still live together?

And how do you know he hasn't laid a hand on her in 20 years? Were you there for every single second of every single day? I doubt your mother would call you just to say 'Oh, I went to the market, picked up some pastries, and your dad beat me before lunch because I burnt the toast...'

C'mon. That's what we're talking about here.
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1. I love how you glazed over how I called you out on your horseshit lie.

2. I believe it doesn't happen because there are no physical signs and she would say something to someone. She's not capable of keeping shit like that to herself. How do I know? Because she had no problem talking about it all the times before.

3. My dad is a little old man who is terrified of jail. Its one of the reasons he stopped hitting us as kids was because someone threaten to call the cops on him at school. So I can say comfortably he doesn't hit my mom anymore.

Not all abuse situations are textbook.
 
The Dark Knight said:
.. So the problem to me seems more like a self esteem issue on both fronts. Little boys seeking to control their worlds by abusing their women and little girls who don't have the self worth to nip this shit in the bud from the first insult, the first sign of trouble.
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You can't be fucking serious. :smt021
 
Kunoichi said:
Even female Judges and female cops are victims of, and endure abuse - and they tell no-one. The shame sometimes is so great, the fear is sometimes so paralyzing.

Drae, even if you asked, a woman in your family may not tell...because she's afraid you will do something and she wants to protect you from his rage and ultimate harm. Real or imagined, this is how deep and fucked the dynamics run.
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Well consider my mind blown my friend. But I have to ask the question what can men like myself do about it? I'm not trying to be rude I just don't get what I can do if this shit is so hidden. I don't think in a way that will allow me to harm anyone man or woman unless my well being or that of someone I care for is being threatened. I know some might say educate people but its like educating my friends on rape or racism. They don't do it so it would kind of fall on deaf ears.
 
Kunoichi said:
You can't be fucking serious. :smt021
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Its been said its a slow build. It starts with little things. So how about not letting him get away with the first "those eggs and bacon you cooked suck. Try again" or "you're getting a little big you need to work out"
It sounds like a break down thing and I would assume you get on that from jump.
 
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