Random Conversation

Espy said:
I don't dispute anything you've written, Kuno, and I have seen enough information on this subject to know that is indeed how some men go about it. However, that goes right back to my question of what makes some people tolerate that while others will not. It may start with emotional abuse, or threats, or psychological abuse, but it starts and with something that I would consider a negative in a relationship. I guess I don't understand why they don't just see it as a negative from the start and get out before it becomes dangerous? I think that's where personality comes into play, or psychological makeup, whatever it is that makes one person stay when another would sense the potential for danger and leave.
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In my case, it didn't start until right after my son was born. So I had a newborn baby, no money, etc. Because I do have a personality that doesn't tolerate abuse, I thought I'd be able to stay until my son was old enough to start school without the psychological stuff getting to me. In a way, I was right, but I had to work my ass off in my head to stay afloat.

When it got physical, I got out. If I hadn't had a baby, I'd probably have left much, much earlier.
 
The Dark Knight said:
Its been said its a slow build. It starts with little things. So how about not letting him get away with the first "those eggs and bacon you cooked suck. Try again" or "you're getting a little big you need to work out"
It sounds like a break down thing and I would assume you get on that from jump.
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It's more like...'I really like that shirt, but I like the other one a lot better.' And you think...no harm in that...I'll wear that one because he likes it!....

And goes onto 'Aww, I wish you had made X...that's my favorite!' and then you think 'well, it's stupid to argue about that...he likes that dish better, and I like it too, so what's the big deal if I make it a little more often for him?'

and then...suddenly, it's 'Oh, this isn't as good as last time...' and 'oh, did that shirt shrink?'

It isn't so blatantly obvious that you think 'asshole, get the fuck out!'
 
The Dark Knight said:
Well consider my mind blown my friend. But I have to ask the question what can men like myself do about it? I'm not trying to be rude I just don't get what I can do if this shit is so hidden. I don't think in a way that will allow me to harm anyone man or woman unless my well being or that of someone I care for is being threatened. I know some might say educate people but its like educating my friends on rape or racism. They don't do it so it would kind of fall on deaf ears.
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Stay alert to the little things. And if you suspect abuse, let the abused person know that you're there, they aren't crazy, and you're willing to help them get out if they need to do that. It's about all you *can* do, other than discouraging people from making jokes about rape and/or domestic violence, and educating people as best you can. Try not to judge the person's actions if they're staying, etc...because by doing so you make them feel even more isolated. Be a safe haven for them. Identify what they're going through.

It was a huge relief for my ex boyfriend today, when 4 minutes into the conversation I said to him "She's abusing you mentally and emotionally." He let out a huge breath and said "I'm so ashamed." But having someone finally put a name to it was a big deal for him. It let him know that all those little tiny things he felt like were so small he couldnt complain about were more than the sum of their parts, and added up to abuse.

This is also not a man with self esteem issues. He's incredibly smart, an amazingly talented musician, a successful systems engineer and architect, and he's not a kid, he's 48 years old. He's never been in an abusive relationship before in his life.
 
TheHuntress said:
It's more like...'I really like that shirt, but I like the other one a lot better.' And you think...no harm in that...I'll wear that one because he likes it!....

And goes onto 'Aww, I wish you had made X...that's my favorite!' and then you think 'well, it's stupid to argue about that...he likes that dish better, and I like it too, so what's the big deal if I make it a little more often for him?'

and then...suddenly, it's 'Oh, this isn't as good as last time...' and 'oh, did that shirt shrink?'

It isn't so blatantly obvious that you think 'asshole, get the fuck out!'
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Exactly, you end up thinking you'd be acting like a bitch for complaining about what's said.
 
TheHuntress said:
It's more like...'I really like that shirt, but I like the other one a lot better.' And you think...no harm in that...I'll wear that one because he likes it!....

And goes onto 'Aww, I wish you had made X...that's my favorite!' and then you think 'well, it's stupid to argue about that...he likes that dish better, and I like it too, so what's the big deal if I make it a little more often for him?'

and then...suddenly, it's 'Oh, this isn't as good as last time...' and 'oh, did that shirt shrink?'

It isn't so blatantly obvious that you think 'asshole, get the fuck out!'
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Funny how the thought "why is this idiot being so damn ungrateful and nit picky" doesn't enter the person's thoughts. That to me is self esteem. I admit when I was younger I use to fall for nonsense like that under the guise of love but as a grown person we wouldn't make it past the first oh I wish you would have taken me here comment. It's really simple either go be with someone who can read your mind or partake in deciding on where to go.
Again it sounds like a self esteem issue to me. Not saying people who have low self esteem are bad or deserve bad shit to happen but it seems to be necessary for shit like this to happen.
 
The Dark Knight said:
Funny how the thought "why is this idiot being so damn ungrateful and nit picky" doesn't enter the person's thoughts. That to me is self esteem. I admit when I was younger I use to fall for nonsense like that under the guise of love but as a grown person we wouldn't make it past the first oh I wish you would have taken me here comment. It's really simple either go be with someone who can read your mind or partake in deciding on where to go.
Again it sounds like a self esteem issue to me. Not saying people who have low self esteem are bad or deserve bad shit to happen but it seems to be necessary for shit like this to happen.
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It really isn't, sad to say. In fact this shit can *cause* self esteem issues where none existed before.
 
TreePixie said:
Stay alert to the little things. And if you suspect abuse, let the abused person know that you're there, they aren't crazy, and you're willing to help them get out if they need to do that. It's about all you *can* do, other than discouraging people from making jokes about rape and/or domestic violence, and educating people as best you can. Try not to judge the person's actions if they're staying, etc...because by doing so you make them feel even more isolated. Be a safe haven for them. Identify what they're going through.

It was a huge relief for my ex boyfriend today, when 4 minutes into the conversation I said to him "She's abusing you mentally and emotionally." He let out a huge breath and said "I'm so ashamed." But having someone finally put a name to it was a big deal for him. It let him know that all those little tiny things he felt like were so small he couldnt complain about were more than the sum of their parts, and added up to abuse.

This is also not a man with self esteem issues. He's incredibly smart, an amazingly talented musician, a successful systems engineer and architect, and he's not a kid, he's 48 years old. He's never been in an abusive relationship before in his life.
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I get the idea of shame but I don't get voluntary abuse unless you have kids and you're suffering for their sake but outside of that I can comprehend. My motto in life is I refuse to be unhappy for anyone period the end. I have lost a lot of good girls because I refused to do shit I didn't want to do. Life is incredibly short why would I volunteer to allow someone to make my life uncomfortable. Again it just doesn't make sense to me.
 
TreePixie said:
It really isn't, sad to say. In fact this shit can *cause* self esteem issues where none existed before.
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YOU can't make ME have self esteem issues. That starts and ends with ME. YOU can't make ME feel a certain way about myself without my permission. That's the only way that shit works.
 
The Dark Knight said:
I get the idea of shame but I don't get voluntary abuse unless you have kids and you're suffering for their sake but outside of that I can comprehend. My motto in life is I refuse to be unhappy for anyone period the end. I have lost a lot of good girls because I refused to do shit I didn't want to do. Life is incredibly short why would I volunteer to allow someone to make my life uncomfortable. Again it just doesn't make sense to me.
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I know it doesn't, Drae, and I'm glad and hope you never, ever find yourself in that situation. What I've said here tonight I've said to try and give a little insight into how something like this can happen to someone who is strong, independent, resourceful and smart anyway. I get that it can be very hard to grasp when you have no direct experience of the situation. I've gleaned from this conversation that you had abuse in your family when you were younger - it's possible that was a sort of vaccine for you. My mother's first husband (not my dad) was abusive, so I grew up with an awareness of domestic violence, and I think that sort of protected and insulated me even while I was in that situation - I didn't absorb the bullshit he threw at me. I heard it, and I won't say it had no effect at all, but I never bought into most of it. I've always thought it was because I had an understanding due to my mother's history.
 
The Dark Knight said:
I get the idea of shame but I don't get voluntary abuse unless you have kids and you're suffering for their sake but outside of that I can comprehend. My motto in life is I refuse to be unhappy for anyone period the end. I have lost a lot of good girls because I refused to do shit I didn't want to do. Life is incredibly short why would I volunteer to allow someone to make my life uncomfortable. Again it just doesn't make sense to me.
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See I don't get that at all. Children suffer too, just from observing you being abused, and if you think you can hide that from them, you can't. Kids are way more observant than some people give them credit for. So staying in that type of situation for the sake of the kids is just damaging to them.

I understand what Pixie is saying about having a baby and no financial resources, and I would hate to be in that position, but I would investigate every possible option that got me out of that situation. Domestic violence shelters and homes are options that didn't exist in the not so distant past, and so I just see no reason for a woman to stay in an abusive home for the sake of anyone, especially not the children.
 
Espy said:
See I don't get that at all. Children suffer too, just from observing you being abused, and if you think you can hide that from them, you can't. Kids are way more observant than some people give them credit for. So staying in that type of situation for the sake of the kids is just damaging to them.

I understand what Pixie is saying about having a baby and no financial resources, and I would hate to be in that position, but I would investigate every possible option that got me out of that situation. Domestic violence shelters and homes are options that didn't exist in the not so distant past, and so I just see no reason for a woman to stay in an abusive home for the sake of anyone, especially not the children.
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In my case because the abuse wasn't physical until the end, I thought I could 'protect' my son from it.

One thing to remember is that if the abuser is the other parent, the abused partner is going to have to deal with that person for 18 yrs at least. And pissing off an abuser can have real consequences both for you and for your kids. That is why some people stay - it's part of why I stayed as long as I did. And yes, he took every freaking opportunity for 15 years to create as much havoc and difficulty for me that he could.
 
The Dark Knight said:
Funny how the thought "why is this idiot being so damn ungrateful and nit picky" doesn't enter the person's thoughts. That to me is self esteem. I admit when I was younger I use to fall for nonsense like that under the guise of love but as a grown person we wouldn't make it past the first oh I wish you would have taken me here comment. It's really simple either go be with someone who can read your mind or partake in deciding on where to go.
Again it sounds like a self esteem issue to me. Not saying people who have low self esteem are bad or deserve bad shit to happen but it seems to be necessary for shit like this to happen.
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You are on the wrong track - that is not it. It happens to people w the best of self esteem and it really is not that obvious - that is the problem, before you know it - you are brainwashed... that's why they say. It is not as simple as you try to make it.

I'm glad thought that you have this convo - obviously you want to learn.. Pick up a book on the topic to understand the mechanism of how and why it works. Its actually a pretty interesting read and the methodology that is used on abuse victims is actually used consciously for other purposes as well, just a little different. Abusers dot use this methodology consciously, ts more often just learned behavior.

If everyone understood the physiology behind abuse, then the stigma of shame and blame would decrease and that would generally help abuse victims tremendously.

Also, this "don't get involved" pack mentality is also a problem. We have to get involved and speak up if someone is showing tendencies. For the most part, people get uncomfortable and don't stand up and say that it is not acceptable.
 
TheHuntress said:
You just have no idea what you're talking about when it comes to this.
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I forgot you were the only authority on this shit lol. My dad told me almost everyday in his house I wasn't shit and would never be shit. I'm sure a lot of people have had that home life and for awhile it got to me but I grew up. I moved out of his house and figured out I control my views of me. No matter what I accomplish no matter what I do I won't be shit to my dad and guess what? It doesn't bug me because I am the only one who has to live with me so my opinion is all that matters or at the very least matters the most. Being in abusive romantic relationship isn't the only type of abusive relationship so please step down off that soapbox. Smh
 
TreePixie said:
I know it doesn't, Drae, and I'm glad and hope you never, ever find yourself in that situation. What I've said here tonight I've said to try and give a little insight into how something like this can happen to someone who is strong, independent, resourceful and smart anyway. I get that it can be very hard to grasp when you have no direct experience of the situation. I've gleaned from this conversation that you had abuse in your family when you were younger - it's possible that was a sort of vaccine for you. My mother's first husband (not my dad) was abusive, so I grew up with an awareness of domestic violence, and I think that sort of protected and insulated me even while I was in that situation - I didn't absorb the bullshit he threw at me. I heard it, and I won't say it had no effect at all, but I never bought into most of it. I've always thought it was because I had an understanding due to my mother's history.
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You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to TreePixie again.
 
TreePixie said:
In my case because the abuse wasn't physical until the end, I thought I could 'protect' my son from it.

One thing to remember is that if the abuser is the other parent, the abused partner is going to have to deal with that person for 18 yrs at least. And pissing off an abuser can have real consequences both for you and for your kids. That is why some people stay - it's part of why I stayed as long as I did. And yes, he took every freaking opportunity for 15 years to create as much havoc and difficulty for me that he could.
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That was the biggest thing for me. I left when I felt that not only I would be safe leaving, but that our daughter would be safe.

Unless you've experienced it firsthand, you can't possibly comprehend the terror that you feel at the hands of someone who does that to you. And he never laid a hand on me, but I had to endure being told repeatedly how he could kill me and make it look like an accident or how he knows people who could while he was in a public place.

I can't even count how many emails I sent from my work email address to a few friends that started out with: keep these emails in case something happens to me.

I gained 40 pounds because of the stress and fear of living with him.
 
TreePixie said:
In my case because the abuse wasn't physical until the end, I thought I could 'protect' my son from it.

One thing to remember is that if the abuser is the other parent, the abused partner is going to have to deal with that person for 18 yrs at least. And pissing off an abuser can have real consequences both for you and for your kids. That is why some people stay - it's part of why I stayed as long as I did. And yes, he took every freaking opportunity for 15 years to create as much havoc and difficulty for me that he could.
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True, but there are restraining orders, and supervised visitation that make it possible to not have to actually see your Ex if abuse was an issue in the relationship. Again those are options that didn't exist or weren't as prevalent in the past, but they're available now. I just can't see voluntarily remaining in that type of situation for any reason, and I have always thought that staying together for the children was one of the stupidest reasons someone could offer. I'm sorry but a loving single parent home is better than an abusive two parent home.

 
Espy said:
True, but there are restraining orders, and supervised visitation that make it possible to not have to actually see your Ex if abuse was an issue in the relationship. Again those are options that didn't exist or weren't as prevalent in the past, but they're available now. I just can't see voluntarily remaining in that type of situation for any reason, and I have always thought that staying together for the children was one of the stupidest reasons someone could offer. I'm sorry but a loving single parent home is better than an abusive two parent home.
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Restraining orders are pieces of paper. They aren't shields around the person that needs it.

I'm just saying....you read stories in the paper about someone getting killed by an ex and the majority of the time, the person doing the killing had a restraining order against them. A piece of paper does not protect a person.
 
FG said:
You are on the wrong track - that is not it. It happens to people w the best of self esteem and it really is not that obvious - that is the problem, before you know it - you are brainwashed... that's why they say. It is not as simple as you try to make it.

I'm glad thought that you have this convo - obviously you want to learn.. Pick up a book on the topic to understand the mechanism of how and why it works. Its actually a pretty interesting read and the methodology that is used on abuse victims is actually used consciously for other purposes as well, just a little different. Abusers dot use this methodology consciously, ts more often just learned behavior.

If everyone understood the physiology behind abuse, then the stigma of shame and blame would decrease and that would generally help abuse victims tremendously.

Also, this "don't get involved" pack mentality is also a problem. We have to get involved and speak up if someone is showing tendencies. For the most part, people get uncomfortable and don't stand up and say that it is not acceptable.
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This I can agree with.
My issue with brain washing is
1. In my own experience(that's all that I have) I've only been manipulated why my self worth wasn't high. I accepted bs because I didn't believe I was worth shit.

2. I think a lot of abuse comes from ignoring warning signs and hoping that they change. It's not so much what the person is doing to you as much as its you hoping they'll see the error in their ways or some how just get it one day. This I can say from experience as well.
 
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