Cheaters

disposableheroine said:
Besides, something I've learned...without bad experiences it's easy to not appreciate the good. Everything in my life, from my freedom to my love, I appreciate far more than anyone I know because I know for a fact it could be worse. Without all of my horrible relationships I wouldn't appreciate my current one as much as I do. Without all of the hurt and self-doubt, I wouldn't love the person I am.
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This is so very true. I've found this out for myself. After all the hell I went through, I now appreciate far more. And when a nice guy tells me that women don't want nice guys, I tell them, that's because they haven't been f*cked over enough to appreciate a good man when they see one.

For me, it really took the experiences I had in my second marriage to truly wake me up to learning to love and respect myself and knowing a good thing when I see it and appreciating the nice things that do happen for me.
 
Bookworm616 said:
This is so very true. I've found this out for myself. After all the hell I went through, I now appreciate far more. And when a nice guy tells me that women don't want nice guys, I tell them, that's because they haven't been f*cked over enough to appreciate a good man when they see one.

For me, it really took the experiences I had in my second marriage to truly wake me up to learning to love and respect myself and knowing a good thing when I see it and appreciating the nice things that do happen for me.
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Only problem is that it takes some people a very long time to learn this lesson...and some don't seem to ever learn. :( I'm lucky in that not only do I learn from my own mistakes, but I observe others and take lessons from theirs, as well.
 
Up until recently, I would have said that infidelity is both immoral and disrespectful. Then I adopted the view that it was disrespectful but not immoral (if it could be guaranteed that one's partner would never find out about it) and now I'm not sure it's even that much (disrespectful).

Imo, something is morally wrong if it either a) causes someone else to suffer or b) deprives them of pleasure/happiness. Cheating on your spouse, if it could be guaranteed that (s)he will never find out, would not cause him or her to suffer nor would it deprive him or her of pleasure/happiness. His/her preference to be in a monogamous relationship would be satisfied, irrespective of whether or not they actually are in a monogamous relationship. The standard argument against cheating is "I wouldn't want my partner to cheat on me or to keep it from me" but this is actually a nonsensical thing to say and I think it comes from our highly developed capacity for abstract thinking. If you did not know that X=Y then it's meaningless to say "If I didn't know X=Y, I would want to know that X=Y", it's not as though you would be sitting there thinking " I wish someone would tell me that X=Y " or "I wish X did not equal Y". What exists to you is what you consciously experience.

At the very least, I argued, it was disrespectful but to 'respect' someone is to hold them in high esteem. People do not cheat because they have a low opinion of their partner or because they are dissatisfied with their relationship, although I'm sure both justify cheating to someone who themselves believes that cheating is unethical and/or disrespectful. Bob has sex with Jill because he is attracted to Jill, not because he lacks respect for his wife Elisabeth or is dissatisfied with their relationship.

I feel that it's tacky to lie to someone you care about but I can't actually articulate why it is disrespectful or why honesty is a moral virtue in circumstances where lying wouldn't alleviate suffering or cause pleasure/happiness. I just don't see how you could lie to someone and be truly intimate with them. If nothing else, I think cheating is morally irresponsible for the simple fact that you cannot guarantee your partner will never find out and it wouldn't be worth the risk of causing them distress.
 
I personally believe to be wrong on many levels.

If some one wishes to have numerous sexual partners, then they shouldn't be in a relationship where by their partner is lead to believe they are the only partner!
 
AfroLove said:
^^ What if that false belief makes their partner happy?
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key word is "false" - its betrayal plain and simple....
sooner or later, it will come out and when it does - the longer the betrayal has gone on, the larger the damage will be - you can destroy a person for ever.

Also, if you feel a need to cheat - then you should do your spouce a favor and leave.... he/she deserves to be with someone that doesnt disrespect and betray
 
It's still wrong, because they would just living a lie..
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But there is no qualitative difference between the experience of believing your partner is not cheating on you and your partner not cheating on you vs. believing your partner is not cheating on you and your partner cheating on you. It's like the Matrix. If you're hooked up into some VR machine and you're eating an apple, it makes no difference to you that you only have the illusion of eating an apple. You can say "I'd want to know if I was really eating an apple" but that's nonsensical for the reason I explained.



and if they did find out, which there would always be a risk of that, they would be devastated :wink:
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I agree, cheating is wrong for that reason alone if for no other but in this hypothetical scenario, your partner would never find out.

key word is "false" - its betrayal plain and simple....
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Would it be betrayal if you had a crush on someone else and didn't tell your partner about it. What does it matter if the infidelity occurs in your mind or real life?

sooner or later, it will come out and when it does - the longer the betrayal has gone on, the larger the damage will be - you can destroy a person for ever.
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I wouldn't underestimate how deeply learning about infidelity can damage someone, it can end in suicides, murders, depression etc. but again, would it be wrong if you could hypothetically guarantee that they would never find out?

Also, if you feel a need to cheat - then you should do your spouce a favor and leave....
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What if it's sexual variety and not a different husband/wife that someone wants?


he/she deserves to be with someone that doesnt disrespect and betray
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But they are getting what they deserve. None of us has any direct, reliable access to the objective world. What exists to us is what we consciously experience.
 
Afro, imo you are over-intellectualizing a very simple concept. If you give you word to someone to be faithful only to them, then either you are a person of character and integrity who keeps their word or you are not.

If you want to have other sexual partners during your relationship, then be open about your wish for an open relationship from the very beginning so the person you are with knows up front what they are signing up for.

Cheating is always about a failing of character, honor and integrity, whether the person being cheated on finds out, or whatever sexual needs are not being met, or any other justification one can dream up does not take away the fact that it comes down to keeping ones word or not. Cheating is all about the individual doing the cheating, not the state of the relationship or the other person in the relationship.
 
It's like that old question: If a tree falls in the forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound? The answer is yes.

Therefore, the same can be said for this situation. If you don't want to be "tied down" to one sexual partner then don't put yourself in that situation. Plain and simple....
 
Loki said:
Afro, imo you are over-intellectualizing a very simple concept. If you give you word to someone to be faithful only to them, then either you are a person of character and integrity who keeps their word or you are not.

If you want to have other sexual partners during your relationship, then be open about your wish for an open relationship from the very beginning so the person you are with knows up front what they are signing up for.

Cheating is always about a failing of character, honor and integrity, whether the person being cheated on finds out, or whatever sexual needs are not being met, or any other justification one can dream up does not take away the fact that it comes down to keeping ones word or not. Cheating is all about the individual doing the cheating, not the state of the relationship or the other person in the relationship.
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bold -I never suggested that cheating was not indicative of poor character, the question is whether or not it's disrespectful or immoral.

underlined - why when I can have my cake and eat it as well (playing devil's advocate)? It isn't possible for anyone to "know" anything, we can only believe that something is true or not. What they're "signing up for" is a monogamous relationship, as far as they "know". What they 'know' is what exists to them so how are they being 'wronged' if cheating doesn't deprive them of the monogamous relationship they want or cause them to suffer? Again, in this hypothetical scenario it's guaranteed that they will never find out.

It's like promising your best friend that you'll scatter his ashes over the Atlantic when he dies and when the time comes, you don't do so. Of course an adult would keep their word but your friend did die satisfied that his wish would be fulfilled. If you do scatter his ashes over the Atlantic, won't it actually be for selfish (sentimental) reasons? He won't benefit from it since he'll never know.
 
AfroLove said:
bold -I never suggested that cheating was not indicative of poor character, the question is whether or not it's disrespectful or immoral.

underlined - why when I can have my cake and eat it as well (playing devil's advocate)? It isn't possible for anyone to "know" anything, we can only believe that something is true or not. What they're "signing up for" is a monogamous relationship, as far as they "know". What they 'know' is what exists to them so how are they being 'wronged' if cheating doesn't deprive them of the monogamous relationship they want or cause them to suffer? Again, in this hypothetical scenario it's guaranteed that they will never find out.

It's like promising your best friend that you'll scatter his ashes over the Atlantic when he dies and when the time comes, you don't do so. Of course an adult would keep their word but your friend did die satisfied that his wish would be fulfilled. If you do scatter his ashes over the Atlantic, won't it actually be for selfish (sentimental) reasons? He won't benefit from it any way if he'll never know.
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AL
It really sounds to me that you ar trying to talk yourself into the non-harm in this (and other of your topics regarding similar ethical matters)...
???
At the end of the day - there is only one thing that counts - INTEGRITY (and all that this implies).
Anything you do has repercussions and consequences, dont fool yourself into believing anything else.
 
Flyingeek said:
AL
It really sounds to me that you ar trying to talk yourself into the non-harm in this (and other of your topics regarding similar ethical matters)...
???
At the end of the day - there is only one thing that counts - INTEGRITY (and all that this implies).
Anything you do has repercussions and consequences, dont fool yourself into believing anything else.
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If you cheated on your spouse (and they never suspected a thing or found out about it), the only person who would have to live with your lack of integrity and character is yourself.

I'm not trying to talk myself into justifying cheating, I'm 'testing' the argument that it's wrong. I don't go very long before I change my mind about something and adopt a new world view, it's refreshing to do so. I have no bias in justifying cheating, I wouldn't do it regardless of whether or not it nececesarily should be considered disrespectful.
 
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